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Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

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Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#471

Post by karpierz »

tomp wrote: post #443
winternett wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the primary things these stories never truly elaborate properly on in the quest to establish social rank out of a caste-based society is that Black Americans, that were native to the US, and even for black migrants to India and other countries, are some of the most affected by caste politics of this kind in employment and work opportunity. Often having darker skin, Black Americans are even prone to more discri…

> Often having darker skin, Black Americans are even prone to more discrimination domestically. Any editorial that doesn't recognize that fact as a truth has no legs to stand on in my opinion. Nigerian immigrants outperform most domestic US groups. So clearly "skin color" isn't the main factor (if at all).

Jamaicans are even more prone to be poorer than Americans.

Would your retort be "but Jamaicans who've won multiple gold medals in sprinting are wealthier than most Americans?"

People who smoke are more likely to get lung cancer.

Would your retort be "13 year olds who smoke have less incidents of lung cancer than the non-smoking population?"

If you subsample enough, you'll find outliers. That doesn't invalidate general trends/statistics.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#472

Post by InfiniteRand »

stavros wrote: post #220
aletzo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but can you please elaborate a bit more on Greeks and Turks? I happen to be Greek and have worked with 2 Turkish colleagues without any issues. On top of that, during my many travels across Europe, Turks (along with other Balkan nationalities) are by far the most welcoming people I meet once they learn that I come from Greece and I befriended a few of them. Do you have any different experiences to share?

I'm Greek as well, and now that you mention it, Turks were indeed the people I tended to have very good relationships at work with. They are especially welcoming, at least the ones I've worked with.

Countries with long intertangled histories often have a lot of cultural similarities as well as deep national grudges. If you remove the people from the national grudges, they tend to get along.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#473

Post by foolinaround »

It is interesting that most here say they have not noticed this, when the caste system is pervasive in the US.I guess this is because it is not as egregious as it used to be, and this makes everyone feel better.

Any Indian that comes to mind, and you could bet that he/she is from an upper caste. It is hidden only because it is sort of accepted, and thats not a good thing.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#474

Post by andybak »

oh_sigh wrote: post #290
berdario wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's your opinion, most people probably disagree. A common way to define racism is: negative prejudice + power (The same can be done for sexism, though obviously on different characteristics) From that point of view, making sure that a marginalized candidate is also interviewed by at least one member of the same marginalized community, if possible, is neither racist nor sexist. (Because you're not negatively discri…

The "+ power" only exists in deep academic redefinitions of racism(where many terms are redefined away from their commonplace meaning), and leftist twitter which latched onto the former for some reason. Most normal Americans, if asked to rank the statements "Black people are disgusting pigs", and "White people are disgusting pigs", would rank them as equally racist, regardless of whether white or black people have "p…

But didn't the term originally come from academia? I'd be curious to know about the actual etymology here.

It's not uncommon for words to have a technical meaning and a colloquial one. I don't see HN getting upset that "theory" is used differently by those awful academics compared to the common man.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#475

Post by mbg721 »

winternett wrote: post #325
icelancer wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> One thing I recommend to my hiring managers is to not allow people from frictioned backgrounds to manage and interview people from the other side. What? This is racist in and of itself and would be blatantly illegal for any number of reasons. Also the problem is not necessarily limited to Pakistani and Indians. It's Indians and Indians. Not sure what you want done there. I freely believe that the caste system of t…

One of the primary things these stories never truly elaborate properly on in the quest to establish social rank out of a caste-based society is that Black Americans, that were native to the US, and even for black migrants to India and other countries, are some of the most affected by caste politics of this kind in employment and work opportunity. Often having darker skin, Black Americans are even prone to more discri…

...Yet, at any company where I've worked, a qualified candidate for a professional position in, say, accounting--who also happens to be black--has HR falling all over themselves in excitement. (The accountant I'm thinking of developed kind of a dark sense of humor in response.) Obsessing over the arbitrary characteristics that originally were used in discrimination doesn't fix it, and never will.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#476

Post by thowaway_2mar »

kamaal wrote: post #374
tsol wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally I believe it occurs in a much lower amount, I haven't seen it at all as an Indian Muslim. Still I don't deny that it happens, especially in areas with less education. By creed it doesn't make sense-- as a popular hadith says "no Arab is better than a non Arab and no white is better than a black, except by piety and good deeds". Of course this hasn't stopped the ignorant in the past(unfortunately)

Among muslims themselves its practically non-existent. Speaking as a Muslim, the way the Indian society perceives us, we are the lowest of the lowest castes. Muslims themselves perceive our layer as fairly flat. This is mostly because most muslims themselves have been caste refugees to a new religion(Islam) in the past. And for the better wouldn't want to go back to that history.

Not true, you maybe an "upper-caste muslim".

1 ) https://theprint.in/opinion/indias-muslim-community-under-a-...

2) https://www.opindia.com/2020/10/muslim-social-hierarchy-cast...

3) https://theprint.in/opinion/pasmanda-muslims-missing-from-po...

4) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lENVbLrJOQw

5) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/we-need-a-caste-censu...

6) https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/dilip-kumar-the-gardene...

7) https://thewire.in/caste/lower-caste-muslims-in-up-forge-new...

Emancipation of the Dalit Muslims hasn't yet occurred, Hindu-Muslim binary contributes to this oppression of Pasmanda and Dalit/ lower caste Muslims.

The oppressor can never understand the pain of the oppressed. How many lower caste Muslims ruled India? Why 90% of the Muslims politicians are upper caste ashrafs/syeeds? Ashraf hegemony must end.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#477

Post by thowaway_2mar »

tsol wrote: post #271
belval wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to exist for Indian muslims as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian...

Anecdotally I believe it occurs in a much lower amount, I haven't seen it at all as an Indian Muslim. Still I don't deny that it happens, especially in areas with less education. By creed it doesn't make sense-- as a popular hadith says "no Arab is better than a non Arab and no white is better than a black, except by piety and good deeds". Of course this hasn't stopped the ignorant in the past(unfortunately)

^ Anecdotally I believe it occurs in a much lower amount, I haven't seen it at all as an Indian Muslim.

Just read the oppression Indian lower caste untouchable Muslims face in India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasmanda_Muslim_Mahaz

Upper caste dominant ashraf/sayeed Muslims in India have tried to label the people of the Mahaz as "un-Islamic heretics", which is a form of propaganda against them. Same is the case in Pakistan.

We all are Muslims and we don't have castes. Unless it's about an upper-caste Muslim woman marrying a lower caste untouchable muslim.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#478

Post by thowaway_2mar »

mama123 wrote: post #463
dash2 wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s all very well but it’s pretty obvious that Dalits get a raw deal in India, and if you don’t think so, then you may just be kidding yourself. Equally, if you think of Muslims as “privileged” under the current BJP government, you need a reality check.

Many Poor muslims just as many poor Indian are now getting electricity, subsidised toilets, zero balance bank accounts, direct benefits transfer for the first time under BJP rule. Many muslim women are for the first time are freed from triple talaq. Their life is certainly far better than the muslims in Pakistan, so much so that many parts of Pakistan are revolting and claiming to want to reunite with India. Whatever…

Don't argue with upper caste muslims.

I am a big admirer of Ali Anwar, founder of Pasmanda Muslim Mahaz. The hindu-muslim binary of the Indian poltics is the biggest issue lower caste muslims are facing today. Every issue is about Hindu and Muslim or Upper and Lower caste Hindus but None talks about the plight of the Dalit and Pasmanda lower caste Muslims.

I know I will get downvoted by upper caste ashrafs and sayeed muslims but this it the trusth. Cast matters, even if you are a muslim in India.

Lower caste pasmanda Muslims are not even allowed to bury their dead bodies with those of upper caste pure blood Muslims, who claim to be descendants of the prophet Mohammed.

Ali Anwar despite being a Muslim was in the JD(U)-BJP alliance in Bihar. BJP is a Hindu-nationalist party that also bought some progressive changes in the Muslim community. I don't like BJP but sometimes even the devil does the right thing, banning triple-talaq was one of such positive things done to uplift oppressed Muslim women.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#479

Post by [deleted] »

karpierz wrote: post #471
tomp wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Often having darker skin, Black Americans are even prone to more discrimination domestically. Any editorial that doesn't recognize that fact as a truth has no legs to stand on in my opinion. Nigerian immigrants outperform most domestic US groups. So clearly "skin color" isn't the main factor (if at all).

Jamaicans are even more prone to be poorer than Americans. Would your retort be "but Jamaicans who've won multiple gold medals in sprinting are wealthier than most Americans?" People who smoke are more likely to get lung cancer. Would your retort be "13 year olds who smoke have less incidents of lung cancer than the non-smoking population?" If you subsample enough, you'll find outliers. That doesn't invalidate genera…

[deleted]

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#480

Post by inlined »

icelancer wrote: post #185
throwaway_dcnt wrote: post #11

The reason for my current user name here at hn was this exact form of racism. It is the first post I made when I created this throwaway. I was assured that my experience was unique and not widespread. I am both sad and happy to see this, sad because it exists, happy because it is getting some attention here at HN. I would like to take this opportunity to point out that everyone of us needs to be vigilant about this t…

>> One thing I recommend to my hiring managers is to not allow people from frictioned backgrounds to manage and interview people from the other side. What? This is racist in and of itself and would be blatantly illegal for any number of reasons. Also the problem is not necessarily limited to Pakistani and Indians. It's Indians and Indians. Not sure what you want done there. I freely believe that the caste system of t…

>> What? This is racist in and of itself and would be blatantly illegal for any number of reasons

Not going to touch the moral implications here, but _is_ that actually illegal discrimination? Is there any benefit for interviewing a particular candidate than an employee would miss out on? Again, not picking a side here; just curious.

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