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Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

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251–260 of 592 posts

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#251

Why can't the SV tech firms not provide affirmative action for the underprivileged lower-caste Dalits in hiring?

Affirmative action is already very controversial in the United States and is probably couple of supreme court cases away from being gutted. At least in academia. There isn't going be any action for a group of people that represents less than 2% of the total U.S population. If anything, this is probably an issue for states to decide. You'd need a sizable lobby to influence such an action.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#252

I am an indian & have been in valley for last couple of decades. anecdotally speaking between me and my friends I have never heard of the caste based discrimination until that cisco case. so much so that people would bring it up at gatherings etc. Also in case anyone is wondering, I do not belong to the upper caste and most of my friends like me are not (not dalits either). btw in my experience internet dating & marr…

"have never heard of the caste based discrimination until that cisco case"

I didn't hear of it either until I noticed large groups of Indian-origin devs and managers (mostly at older companies such as IBM, Oracle, etc), and somehow only the 'upper caste' folks would get promoted and be invited to happy hours and such. How much that can be attributed to inter-personal relationships and professional competence as opposed to outright discrimination, one will never know but a pattern does emerge. It's never in your face discrimination, just subtle favoritism towards one's group.

Mind you, this happens with people from the same Indian state as well. They'll often speak in their regional language during meetings even though not everyone speaks that language, which simply goes on to alienate that team member. (This has happened to friends of mine at T-Mobile and Intel)

"marriage sites have done more to break cast barriers in india"

Not sure if I agree with you there. It has brought to light just how prevalent that kind of thinking is. It's a common trope on Indian matrimonial websites how users have a list of requirements (Looking for fair skinned, Hindu upper caste, etc). Maybe that has helped break cast barriers by bringing it to light, I don't know, but it was really surprising when I came upon it for the first time.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#253
post #7

To Indian commenters on HN, how much of that is true? Do you feel threatened when a coworker asks about where you are from? It's something I do ask from time to time (not during interviews obviously, but during lunch for example) out of pure curiosity. Should I stop? I guess that I should explicitly add that I am not from India. Cross-cultural communications can be a bit difficult at times and I'd rather not make blu…

You can't find somebody's caste from knowing where they're from. But last names generally are associated with their caste.

For this reason, my state got rid of surnames ~50 years ago. It sure is inconvenient in some places: I have to explain that I don't have a last name and that they're calling me by my father's first name. But given the pros, I don't know why the other states haven't followed suit

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#254
post #67

I am from “upper caste”. My experience might not be commonly heard perspective. In 10th grade of schooling, my parents changed my lastname to avoid that folks figure out the caste. Due to affirmative action (aka reservation) on steroids, upper caste were losing opportunities. My parents wanted to avoid that I lose out on selection, promotions.., where subjective discretion was involved. I do not recall ever seeing ca…

I grew up in urban India and my experience with caste system is the same, never really experienced discrimination personally but I know of it being widely prevalent in the country.

This scene from an Indian movie I saw recently made me realize that the caste system is not just prevalent and absurd but also has a very complicated hierarchy built into it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4N98tQsp64 (<2 min, with subtitles)

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#255

One day it occurred to me that I can tell if someone is from India, but that I'd never considered to notice more nuances than that, for such a big country with so many groups of people. I have just begun to notice, but I have no idea about the identity politics. I recall in college that some of my friends from India would fawn over certain last names, and I felt it was something to do with the caste system, but I had…

^ How many people from that group would be in Silicon Valley Less that 10% Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047 - Sept 2020 (613 comments) ^ Seems like there is a potential for solidarity amongst more vocal groups pushing for representation. Good luck, but I don't believe that's happening anytime soon considering that SV is upper-caste dominated…

California didn't reject Prop 16 because of a consensus against this form of progressiveness, they rejected it because people read the implementation of Prop 16 and saw it was flawed. California has enacted a great number of "feel good" things that screwed everyone, voters are being more discerning.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of it is FUD. California withdrew it's Cisco case but you wont' see any coverage of that here. https://thewire.in/caste/california-drops-caste-discriminati... I am from India and have been in the US for more than a decade. I come from a low caste. The only folks who have asked about my caste and asked if I am from a higher caste are white Americans due to my vegetarianism (voluntary for ethical reasons). > Do y…

>I come from a low caste. The only folks who have asked about my caste and asked if I am from a higher caste are white Americans due to my vegetarianism (voluntary for ethical reasons). Because other Indians will identify your caste based on your last name, food habits, dialect, your family business (etc). They don't need to ask you.

> Because other Indians will identify your caste based on your last name, food habits, dialect, your family business (etc). They don't need to ask you.

False. This is a broad generalization. Some large states in India use paternal names as last names.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic#India

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#257
As someone born and raised in India, things like this were a bit "distant" from me when I was in school (it came up but I was never a victim).

But the more I got to know Indians who were more privileged than I have been, the pattern started to clearly emerge. I distinctly remember thinking - "people who are better educated than I am tend to be richer or from an upper caste background, usually both".

I try to not let it get to me - I'm in a more "esoteric" position as I'm neither one of the privileged castes nor the downtrodden. My last name is still a dead giveaway to people who know. And I wonder how many opportunities I've missed because I've never been part of these subgroups (any subgroups really). I'm lucky enough that I have friends and a partner who recognise their historical privilege very well.

It's why diversity is important. I love working with my Dutch, Indian, German, Turkish, Chinese, American, Brazilian etc... colleagues. When I'm in a diverse group, those feelings tend to fade away - because I know there isn't a large group that I might need to be closely aligned with.

Of course, living in another country (not USA), the higher up I look at management, the less diversity I see. Same problem in a different form, I suppose. :)

All of the above is just an individual experience. But data seems to confirm it.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a woman in the room when other women are getting interviewed isn't discriminatory. Telling a woman she can't interview someone because she is a woman (or other protected class) is.

They both are explicitly sexist. Hard to define that away. Maybe it's not bad; but it's sexist. Just as it would be racist if the criteria was making sure one of the interviewers was of specific race or nationality.

That's your opinion, most people probably disagree.

A common way to define racism is: negative prejudice + power

(The same can be done for sexism, though obviously on different characteristics)

From that point of view, making sure that a marginalized candidate is also interviewed by at least one member of the same marginalized community, if possible, is neither racist nor sexist.

(Because you're not negatively discriminating, and in fact to define the rule you don't even need to single out which marginalized community they are part of)

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#259
Affirmative action in India is multi-fold. One, there is punishment for insult/discrimination based on caste (in public view, as per law). The law is very powerful, feared and sometimes misused. Two, there is a quota system in education and jobs, for some castes in the society. Three, once in a job that comes under affirmative action category, there is further affirmative action to move the person up through the ranks.

Now, the resentments on this affirmative action (Ambedkar, who is highlighted in the passage, originally wrote that the AA will be for a period of 5 years, but has since been used as a vote bank tool) are plenty and some, IMV, are justified.

One is that the current and previous generations, have seen very limited caste discriminations. Sure, events happen in a country as big and varied as India, but generally, caste based discriminations have been subdued, and mostly pushed back to silent and invisible forms (social interactions, marriages, friendships, etc). The current and previous generation kids, have hardly seen any caste based discrimination due to various reasons. It also helps that a section of political leaders are from the backward and other castes.

What this brings about is the feeling of unfair punishment. A kid who is in high school now, who has friends from all walks of life, of many castes and religions (In my schooling, with high school ending in 2003, I never once bothered about caste and religion, as it was never a point of discussion) will write an exam for bagging a seat in a good college or university. Then he will discover, that the same friend who has been with him for all these years, has a similar lifestyle as him, goes everywhere he goes, does everything he does, is eligible for a seat with a lower cut-off score, buoyed by additional mandatory allotment of seats.

From the perspective of the kid, he works hard and sincerely, only to be snubbed because his forefathers have insulted some castes in their days.

What would you tell him?

Two, the benefits of AA have not percolated throughout the society. Those who have benefitted from the initial steps, have risen to wealth and power, and continue to get the benefits, while those who really need help, often do not get it.

Also, after 200 years of British occupation, India was left penniless. Couple that with decades of socialist policies, wealth generation was low and slow. This results in a huge section of population being poor. And this includes all castes and creeds.

I often see negative and insulting remarks on Brahmins (considered the "highest" caste), and often they are blamed for all evils of caste discrimination (whereas, discrimination has been in the society from all sections and even within castes). However, presently, a majority of brahmins are poor or middle class.

In this scenario, the only escape those who do not belong to the AA castes, is to move abroad in search of better opportunities.

All this caste based drama in SV and elsewhere is the result of that feeling of unfair punishment.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#260

As someone born and raised in India, things like this were a bit "distant" from me when I was in school (it came up but I was never a victim). But the more I got to know Indians who were more privileged than I have been, the pattern started to clearly emerge. I distinctly remember thinking - "people who are better educated than I am tend to be richer or from an upper caste background, usually both". I try to not let…

> But data seems to confirm it.

Can you share this data. I am curious.

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