Tell HN: If You Are in Russia • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#771

Post by luc4sdreyer » Tue, Mar 01, 2022, 12:41 PM UTC

qnsi wrote: post #729

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are any countries accepting refuges from Russia that seek asylum? This is an important topic. Some EU countries like Czechia are even blocking visas for Russian citizens now and I think this will be a trend in other EU countries. AFAIK, since Russia is the aggressor here and is (on paper) a democratic country (but not really), then its citizens are not considered yet victims of the war, and are most likely not falli…

CNN finds that twice as many Russians believe it would be right for Moscow to use military force to prevent Kyiv from joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) as say it would be wrong. One out of every two Russians (50%) says it would be right, while only a quarter (25%) say it would be wrong. The other quarter (25%) are unsure, according to the survey. But the poll also found that more Russians think it…

These polls paint a somewhat different picture. I'm not claiming that they're more accurate than yours. Just that it's difficult to understand the situation as an outsider. Sample size is at least 1600 people and was done by the independent Levada Center.

> Who do you think initiated the aggravation of the situation in eastern Ukraine?:

50%: U.S., NATO countries

> In the event of an outbreak of hostilities in eastern Ukraine, should Russia engage in armed conflict on the side of the DPR/LPR? (percent of respondents)

Exactly split down the middle, 14% said it's difficult to answer.

> How, in your opinion, would the attitudes of Russians change toward Vladimir Putin in the event of a full-scale war with Ukraine? (percent of respondents)

8% net bias towards thinking that it would make him less popular.

> Do you think Russia needs to improve relations with the U.S. and other Western countries? (one response allowed)

Overwhelming yes (79%)

source: https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/5-polls-contextualize...

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#772

Post by tut-urut-utut » Tue, Mar 01, 2022, 12:44 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #675

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Star Trek fleet had actually excellent policies: - "any contact to less developed civilizations is strictly forbidden". - "do not interfere in any way and don't take a side in conflicts of sovereign civilizations". Both of them were crucial. If we followed these principles, the world would be much happier and peaceful place. What do we do instead? Bomb democracy into societies not yet ready for it, force trade agreem…

> any contact to less developed civilizations is strictly forbidden >> If we followed these principles, the world would be much happier and peaceful place. And less developed civilizations would have polio, ox carts, and witch medicine.

Instead, they got slavery, colonialism, multinational corporations, foreign installed puppet governments, debts, modern slavery, outside financed extremist groups and civil wars, ...

Just try to look objectively, and you'll see that a vast majority of people in Iraq, Libya, Iran, and Afghanistan lived much better and safer life then after a series of foreign interventions and introduction of "democracy".

If we go a bit further in the past, the whole population of South and North America got annihilated by the diseases that came with the colonial forces. So yes, they would definitely be better if we had a Star Trek approach.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#773

Post by luc4sdreyer » Tue, Mar 01, 2022, 12:48 PM UTC

bigboiseal wrote: post #766

koonsolo wrote: post #728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're forced into a conflict they don't want to be in, and are suffering the consequences. Ukrainians are also forced into a conflict they don't want. Unfortunately, it's up to both the Ukrainians and Russians to do something about it, not Ukrainians alone. The Ukrainians clearly made their decision. Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs.

> The Ukrainians clearly made their decision. Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs. Russia is a non-democratic country...

Oh well, that's too bad. I guess it'll stay that way until the Sun swallows the Earth.

It's an incredibly difficult thing to do, and it can't come from the outside. Russians have to collectively decide that they don't accept the situation anymore, and that they're prepared to pay the price with their blood. They did in 1918, and I wish I could support them to do it again.

Of course it's easier said than done. And yet I'm not claiming that it's easy, quite the opposite.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#774

Post by antocv » Tue, Mar 01, 2022, 12:53 PM UTC

jen20 wrote: post #676

antocv wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, we are sitting in our comfortable homes still and this is for us another thought-challenge about horrible events far away. I condemn all wars, but as nerds continue with the thinking and analyzing, this is not meant to defend any side and especially not to justify any war. Now then, what you said. Do you also hold that against all the Germans when they started both World War 1, and World War 2? They did nothing.…

There most certainly was a German resistance movement during and in the build-up to WW2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism gives a good summary.

Yeah, as I said - nothing of significance.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#775

Post by bigodbiel » Tue, Mar 01, 2022, 12:55 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #526

ceilingcorner wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is really distressing, not only because it’s ethically wrong to blame groups of people for individual actions, but also because it’s pragmatically against the interests of the West. We gain nothing by escalating this.

"We" did not escalate this; Russia did by annexing Crimea in 2014 and invading Ukraine. They could have chosen not to do so and instead focus on building up good international relationships. What did they think they had to gain from annexing neighbouring territory? More control over the Black Sea I guess, but why do they want that control in the first place? Russia can de-escalate by withdrawing. The only way for 'th…

How was, before this hell, the consensus of the people in Ukraine for a Finland like solution, ceading territory (Crimea), neutrality (non-Nato), but within the EU (won't ask about Minsk agreement, cause I know no one supported it)? I always found this to have been the best option for all sides.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#776

Post by koonsolo » Tue, Mar 01, 2022, 12:56 PM UTC

ssijak wrote: post #737

koonsolo wrote: post #511

I have a different message: Go on the street and take control of your country, before you turn into another North Korea. Ukrainians were able to overthrow their government, and so can you.

Are you referring to Viktor Yanukovych in 2014? Honestly, as far as I know, he was democratically elected. Was that not the case?

Putin too in 2000, no?

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#777

Post by adriancr » Tue, Mar 01, 2022, 12:58 PM UTC

ssijak wrote: post #741

adriancr wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the sanctions didn’t work before, I don’t know why they would work now. Just look at short term effects: Ruble is down 30%, Russian banks in EU are going bankrupt, interest rate jumped to 20% so anyone with a loan in Russia is screwed... There's talk of seizing people's savings... Nobody can buy foreign currency... Perhaps they'll go back to trading with Kent cigar packs like in former USSR. Longer term, it's as…

Do we really want biggest nuclear power in the world totally alienated long term?

If you meant Russia, there has to be consequences for its actions, so yes. Nobody wanted the war or to have to impose sanctions.

If you meant it as a praise, biggest nuclear power, after some point it doesn't matter anymore, both US and Russia can destroy the world by themselves. (also note that warheads on wikipedia doesn't track MIRVs, each of those can split off in space and target multiple cities on reentry)

In NATO there's also France/UK that can destroy Russia by themselves.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#778

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Mar 01, 2022, 1:00 PM UTC

bigodbiel wrote: post #775

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We" did not escalate this; Russia did by annexing Crimea in 2014 and invading Ukraine. They could have chosen not to do so and instead focus on building up good international relationships. What did they think they had to gain from annexing neighbouring territory? More control over the Black Sea I guess, but why do they want that control in the first place? Russia can de-escalate by withdrawing. The only way for 'th…

How was, before this hell, the consensus of the people in Ukraine for a Finland like solution, ceading territory (Crimea), neutrality (non-Nato), but within the EU (won't ask about Minsk agreement, cause I know no one supported it)? I always found this to have been the best option for all sides.

Ukraine was effectively already at war with Russia since 2014, it just got paused without real resolution.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#779

Post by ukraineally » Tue, Mar 01, 2022, 1:03 PM UTC

teekert wrote: post #180

This whole situation is so surreal and disappointing. I grew up on Star Trek and somehow I just though we had (almost) arrived in a post-war, federation-like world. We know things should be solved with words because otherwise there are only losers. It’s how we raise our kids. I just keep thinking about how Jean Luc is looking down on us from orbit, slowly shaking his head whispering “Savages.”

>This whole situation is so surreal and disappointing. I grew up on Star Trek and somehow I just though we had (almost) arrived in a post-war, federation-like world. We know things should be solved with words because otherwise there are only losers. It’s how we raise our kids.

I too am a trekkie and we could still obtain this vision.

So far only world sanctions have been brought against Russia.

If the Russian people rise up and protest/overthrow their government. It would tell the world that such extreme sanctions are enough to crush a nuclear power and prevent war. That we are indeed post-war. That borders become less important. Instead of war, we take that money and invest in ourselves. We start building tall.

If the Russian people don't do this. It means we are not post-war. It means we haven't broken the cycle. It means in about 2100, the cycle hits again and we have another massive war.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#780

Post by tut-urut-utut » Tue, Mar 01, 2022, 1:04 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #503

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Star Trek fleet had actually excellent policies: - "any contact to less developed civilizations is strictly forbidden". - "do not interfere in any way and don't take a side in conflicts of sovereign civilizations". Both of them were crucial. If we followed these principles, the world would be much happier and peaceful place. What do we do instead? Bomb democracy into societies not yet ready for it, force trade agreem…

> If we followed these principles, the world would be much happier and peaceful place. But countries like Russia would be free to invade Ukraine and others because of the "don't interfere" and "don't take a side" policy. It's like the "I did nothing" poem. NATO was founded to try and prevent another country from building an empire like Germany tried in WW2, because at the time it was like that poem, first they came.…

> But countries like Russia would be free to invade Ukraine and others because of the "don't interfere" and "don't take a side" policy.

The "don't interfere" policy would also apply to Russia. And if they still try, the others would be responsible not to let them interfere. In the same way as others would need to stop China, USA, and Zimbabwe when they attempt to interfere with another sovereign state on the lesser level of development.