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I have formally accepted the CEO job at Cruise once again

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Re: I have formally accepted the CEO job at Cruise once again

#181

Post by onethought »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #179
onethought wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry you are misrepresenting things a lot. Tesla publish autopilot data every year. Crashes per mile with AP, without AP, and with Safety assistance features, and show consistent improvement of AP. What do the competitors publish? You are comparing AP (a traffic aware lane keeping cruise control system) to Waymo (a driverless taxi)? How about FSD Beta vs Waymo how has your experience been there? By "in public" I mea…

I would consider a reasonable definition of 'open' to include publication of all relevant safety metrics through the appropriate channels. As the other reply mentions, one channel would be the DMV report in CA which Tesla famously eschews. They also don't publish FSD data, and their AP numbers are essentially useless for determining actual safety. They also don't have professional testers like cruise, waymo, etc do v…

I'm sorry I don't consider a "curated CSV for California only" to be at all equivalent to 60,000 members across the US of the public who are free to post videos and setup failure cases, and report whatever they like.

> They also don't have professional testers like cruise, waymo, etc do validating releases.

Source? From my understanding they rollout releases to employees first (I assume a subset of those are professional testers). Then to beta testers. There have been a couple of releases that have been halted that lend credence to that.

> They also don't publish FSD data, and their AP numbers are essentially useless for determining actual safety

So is this because you can't see detailed data of their in-progress beta software? Could you show me the beta stats of Waymo/Cruise? Where are they published? Tesla aren't operating any robotaxis - so it's clearly not a finished piece of software is it?

On the AP front, why is the AP data useless? Which data do you need that is missing?

Re: I have formally accepted the CEO job at Cruise once again

#182

Post by [deleted] »

mbg721 wrote: post #171
onethought wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is definitely not "unethical" to have an AV drive just like a human does... Unlawful, perhaps.

When programming an AV to drive like a human does, are the programmers including all the contextual human judgement that goes along with the human decisions, or just throwing away the letter of the law because it's too much trouble? I have a hard time explaining to a human teenager the etiquette that goes along with something like merging onto a highway, and it varies by region.

[deleted]

Re: I have formally accepted the CEO job at Cruise once again

#184

Post by andbberger »

bluGill wrote: post #32
walrus01 wrote: post #26

From the last time that Cruise showed up on HN a while back, I recall I made a comment based on the photos of their test vehicles that they're clearly going all-in on LIDAR + RADAR + camera for feeding data into their autonomous onboard navigation computer. This is directly the opposite of what Tesla has mandated their engineers to do, which is to be 100% reliant upon camera systems only. Somebody at Cruise commented…

My problem with cameras is as a human I'm well aware there are things that I can't see and so i rely on faith. I've driven in dense fog trusting that nobody else would be stupid enough to do the same (fortunately taillights can be seen through fog, but not many other dangers that normally are not on the road, but if so they are dead). I often drive with sub in my eyes at dawn/dusk and trust that the road is clear. I…

I don't wish to come within 100km of you as a pedestrian

Re: I have formally accepted the CEO job at Cruise once again

#185

Post by joenathanone »

ec109685 wrote: post #152
joenathanone wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which I personally think is a mistake. I'm in the FSD beta and previously Tesla bounced the radar off the ground and was able to see a few car lengths ahead, vision only, not so much. The effect is when stuck in heavy traffic on surface streets FSD beta will think it should try to go around a lead car that is stopped, not knowing there is a long line of traffic ahead of the lead car. I don't see how they can overcome…

How is camera placement worse than what we can see as a driver?

https://mobile.twitter.com/taylorogan/status/142590890128377...

This is a decent thread that has some visuals, some others have created 3d models demonstrating the blind spots the cameras have.

Re: I have formally accepted the CEO job at Cruise once again

#186

Post by nebukadnet »

walrus01 wrote: post #26

From the last time that Cruise showed up on HN a while back, I recall I made a comment based on the photos of their test vehicles that they're clearly going all-in on LIDAR + RADAR + camera for feeding data into their autonomous onboard navigation computer. This is directly the opposite of what Tesla has mandated their engineers to do, which is to be 100% reliant upon camera systems only. Somebody at Cruise commented…

Don't you have a big problem with interference? I wouldn't trust a Lidar/radar based vision if there were 30 other cars waiting at an intersection. Yes, you can use multiple bands etc, but that's the advantage of using more passive sensors such as cameras.

They work without synchronisation to the cars driving next to you.

Re: I have formally accepted the CEO job at Cruise once again

#187

Post by cameronh90 »

bluGill wrote: post #32
walrus01 wrote: post #26

From the last time that Cruise showed up on HN a while back, I recall I made a comment based on the photos of their test vehicles that they're clearly going all-in on LIDAR + RADAR + camera for feeding data into their autonomous onboard navigation computer. This is directly the opposite of what Tesla has mandated their engineers to do, which is to be 100% reliant upon camera systems only. Somebody at Cruise commented…

My problem with cameras is as a human I'm well aware there are things that I can't see and so i rely on faith. I've driven in dense fog trusting that nobody else would be stupid enough to do the same (fortunately taillights can be seen through fog, but not many other dangers that normally are not on the road, but if so they are dead). I often drive with sub in my eyes at dawn/dusk and trust that the road is clear. I…

The solution to most of your issues is to drive slower. You should be driving at a speed such that you could stop if anything unexpected is beyond your visual line of sight. If that means you can only drive at 10mph in dense fog, so be it. I personally refuse to drive on a motorway in dense fog becuase there are always pile ups. Honestly, there are just conditions where we shouldn't be driving and society should accept that. Same reason we sometimes cancel flights, busses and trains.

As far as Tesla goes, I disagree with their decision to remove sensors from their cars, however I also don't think Lidar, Radar, etc. would help all that much. Radar isn't high enough resolution for driving through dense fog, and Lidar doesn't work in fog. Driving in fog is just hard.

Re: I have formally accepted the CEO job at Cruise once again

#188

Post by iamleppert »

Only in the tech industry is it acceptable for a CEO to unilaterally make decrees about what kind of sensor to use and not provide a shred of evidence, no strategy or engineering rigor to support the decision.

I’m talking about Tesla. Imagine if the Boeing CEO one day woke up and started dictating the sensor modality of aircraft to his engineers? People would think it was crazy. Because, it is.

Re: I have formally accepted the CEO job at Cruise once again

#189

Post by Balero »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #160
paganel wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I often drive with sub in my eyes at dawn/dusk and trust that the road is clear Not sure how to say it, but try to never do that going forward, please, for your sake and for the sake of the others who share the same road with you. Yes, driving "blind" for one second, maybe two seconds (even though it's uncomfortable for me at this point) from time to time is not the end of the world, particularly if you're driving…

>not sure how to say it, but try to never do that going forward, And what? Be the lead car of the N-car pileup? It's real easy to spit out idealized "never/always" type crap on the internet but meatspace is full of nuance and no rules of thumb can save you from having to make judgement calls.

Or just don't drive. If you are driving blind like the parent is claiming they do (driving without seeing before you can stop is driving blind) then it is only a matter of time until you hurt yourself, or worse someone else.

I have driven on the motorway in heavy fog, and like everyone around me I slowed down, and there were no accidents.

Acting like an idiot because you think others will is not a good course of action, especially when you will cause issues to the majority who do not act like idiots.

Re: I have formally accepted the CEO job at Cruise once again

#190

Post by dncornholio »

bastawhiz wrote: post #159
davewritescode wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big problem with Autopilot is the sleazy way it’s been marketed and sold to customers and regulators versus what the system really is. Charging folks $10k for an option with the CEO insisting that “full self driving” is shipping next year is borderline fraud. I won’t buy a GM product and I won’t buy a Tesla product either, happy?

It's worth being precise about the terminology: Autopilot comes with the car (autosteer), FSD is what costs $10k extra. Conflating the two makes it harder to have a conversation about what either actually is or does.

But, they are both scams.
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