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Caltech's CS interview prep course

courses.cms.caltech.edu

101–110 of 336 posts

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#101
post #40

My career path in tech so far has been junior engineer -> mid level -> senior -> tech lead. As I've progressed through that path, I have had literally no opportunities of applying the stuff I've learnt on HackerRank, save for a couple of interviews. At this point I'm convinced that the focus of those interviews was entirely wrong. Once you pass those tests and get hired, you will be dealing with tons of legacy code r…

> I have had literally no opportunities of applying the stuff I've learnt on HackerRank

I have. Many times.

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#102
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not anymore! Blind auditions are now a thing of the past: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition... However, since you can't choose your parents or where you were born, there's little you can do to prepare for the Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity goals. (I could probably get a lift by changing my religion. People with the exact same ethnicity and appearance as me but of a different faith are con…

That article is behind the NYT paywall but the bit of it I could see appears to be saying not that > blind auditions are now a thing of the past but that they should become a thing of the past, so that orchestras can ensure that their makeup (race, gender, etc.) matches that of "the communities they serve". There's a big difference between "one person writing in the New York Times thinks orchestras should stop doing…

It is already happening. For example: https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/09/buffalo-philharmonic-...

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#103
post #3

If you don't think modern interviewing practices are a problem, this should be proof enough. Not only do we have an entire programming book sub-genre dedicated to this nonsense, but now we're also wasting class time on memorizing sorting algorithms. Fantastic. Of course, we're going to see the inevitable arguments that "40% of the people I interview lie on resumes" or "I interviewed this guy once, and he couldn't eve…

The class is being taught in the Computer Science department, not the software engineering or programming department. I think the bigger issue is the conflation of CS and SWE.

To your point about how you interview, unless there is an alternative I would never be able to apply to your company. I have no open source contributions or code samples to share and no interest in writing a book. I also have no interest in applying to places with take home exams where the company gets me to spend time interviewing without a commensurate investment of time on their part.

Where does that leave us? I guess it’s not ideal but, at least for me, the current process seems like it’s at least a local maximum.

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're completely right, and this actually is another layer to the whiteboarding technical interviews are broken narrative: there are no objective standards, even if there is huge overlap in the content being interviewed from company to company (or even team to team). A very discouraging aspect about these interviews is that the rubric is completely hidden away from candidates and feedback is almost never provided. A…

There are no objective standards for the output of the software development process. It's a unique mishmash of building the blueprints and the final artifact at the same time. Not because we want to be a bunch of cowboys, but because the unique ability of it to be that flexible, and to be patched over time, means speed is possible in a way it just isn't in other fields, and the market has rewarded companies that move…

You are talking about the nitty-gritty aspects of actual software engineering. I’m talking about doing away with the redundancy of having to retake the industry-wide Leetcode fizzbuzz portion instead of passing it once.

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#105
post #40

My career path in tech so far has been junior engineer -> mid level -> senior -> tech lead. As I've progressed through that path, I have had literally no opportunities of applying the stuff I've learnt on HackerRank, save for a couple of interviews. At this point I'm convinced that the focus of those interviews was entirely wrong. Once you pass those tests and get hired, you will be dealing with tons of legacy code r…

What’s your suggested alternative? Please remember that while some of us would do well and prefer some live pair programming or debugging sessions, it stresses the hell out of some folks and penalizes them unfairly. Take home tests penalizes people with families and other responsibilities and probably has a racial bias as well in countries where different races have different societal loads. In the end, even if these…

> they might still be predictive of success in the job

Basing an assumption out of thin air like this, we can throw the opposite argument: 'they might be predictive of failure in the job'.

Writers of bad code and choices mentioned by OP were likely hired out of a fantastic hacker rank score, and yet failed to produce good output.

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want a license? The whole allure of software development is in its accessibility, that it's easy to get started with nothing more than a laptop and an Internet connection. Putting up artificial barriers to entry is anathema to that. What you'll end up with, in practice, is one of two outcomes: 1. A race to the bottom where licenses become easier and easier to get, until it becomes no more a demonstratio…

By license I mean the current Leetcode interview process except you do it once and are good for at least five years. Obviously when candidates are interviewed there would still be technical questions asked, but perhaps those would be more domain-specific. The whole point is to avoid the redundancy of the existing interview process.

> By license I mean the current Leetcode interview process except you do it once and are good for at least five years

Some companies do seem to be offering something similar to this, see CodeSignal's general coding assessment or back when TripleByte was big a few years ago. I think the problem is that even within the specialized topic of LC style interviews, many companies don't agree on a similar strategy when it comes to types of questions and difficulty. There isn't one standard that every company agrees on, so most have their own flavor of it.

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computer Science is not Software Engineering. A PhD does not translate to real world engineering skills. If you just go through a bachelors CS curriculum, designed to give a survey of all topics in academic computer science, that wouldn't make you a competent engineer. This is especially true now that through the internet, just about anyone with a laptop can get as good as they want at software engineering without ev…

> If I had the choice between a Caltech grad who had all A's and no experience or a student from some random state school who had interned every summer and contributed to open source, I'd pick the latter. I really wish someone had explained this to me while I was in college.. I had ONE professor who'd actually worked in the real world who explained it, but all the other professors were lifetime academics who just par…

A lot of talent is wasted by young people doing their utmost best at uni only to find out that no one cared. I applied to FAANG after graduating CS and no one got back to me.

A friend of mine in the HFT world told me “I know how hard some of your courses were. But you can’t highlight them on your cv because no one will believe you that they were that hard. And even if they did, they wouldn’t believe that those skills are transferable.”

Going to yet another job interview, I spoke to my interviewer who had a similar CS specalization but from another uni. He told me “my master was of baaad quality.” I responded with: “mine wasn’t, and my classmates all feel the same because we’ve learned practical skills and our teachers prided themselves in giving difficult yet practical courses.” He looked at me with disbelief.

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#108
post #40

My career path in tech so far has been junior engineer -> mid level -> senior -> tech lead. As I've progressed through that path, I have had literally no opportunities of applying the stuff I've learnt on HackerRank, save for a couple of interviews. At this point I'm convinced that the focus of those interviews was entirely wrong. Once you pass those tests and get hired, you will be dealing with tons of legacy code r…

Bingo.

It should be telling that there are a number of, usually for-profit, resources for prepping for just the interview process:

* leetcode

* Cracking the Coding Interview

* Elements of Programing Interviews

* Interview Kickstart, which costs like $5500, is a bootcamp just for passing interviews

* educative.io

* algoexpert.io

That being said, I might just play along with the DS / Algo interview game. Having an interview process that is artificially arduous and way outside the expectations of the job duties means that the job market will stay artificially inflated on the demand side. Hiring leetcode monkeys who can barely deploy and manage k8s cluster on AWS means the demand for my skills will be more valuable than if the interview process actually worked. I can complain all day to my bosses about how hard it is to hire (its not that hard) and meanwhile rip their HR budget to shreds when I threaten to leave unless I get paid more (I've done that before, I recently got a promotion and 50% raise on base alone).

So yeah, I'll gatekeep as long as others play too. I hate the game, but I will play it to my advantage.

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we see what the alternative to whiteboard interviews: credentialism. Get into the right school and muddle through and get a guaranteed 200k! Is there more to you than your high school performance? Push back against this if so! (Calling the interview Leetcode is misleading IME, since I've rarely been asked something that would be near the upper tiers of that site's difficulty). Top-tier tech companies face a LOT…

> why should I trust the university selection process more than those corporate hiring ones? I don't know the US education system enough, but there are some schools out there which are much more selective than any SWE interview process. You can be guaranteed that the worst student from these top schools could nail any algorithm interview with minimal preparation. But these big companies hire many more people than the…

Needing to hire more than just the top schools graduate is certainly a reason companies can't limit themselves to university selection processes.

But that's not all that's going on here! CalTech is pretty selective as far as US schools go (6% acceptance rate). Slightly more than MIT, slightly less than Stanford. SAT score stats all in the same 1500+ range.

But they're offering this course, and that makes me think that no, the worst student from these schools in the US, at least cannot nail any algorithm interview with minimal prep!

And that makes sense, from a US perspective! Getting into CalTech or Stanford or MIT is about doing well at high school/early-college level material in high school, and about extracurricular activities, with a dash of being able to afford it and being told it's something you should try for. Most of that high school curriculum - even most college-level CS material - isn't super applicable to a software engineering job. It's heavier on memorization (we have google for that!) and it's heavier on theory than on creative application of things.

I might argue that any test or course where the answers to the exams come straight out of the textbook isn't worth as much as it used to be, since we've got Google and SO and all the books too!

That's a big part of why a lot of these whiteboard interviews aren't simply "write out Dijkstra's algorithm" (boring, textbook!) but are about seeing if you can figure out how to use apply CS in a situation where the way the problem maps to the algorithm isn't immediately obvious.

Creative work has a long history of not aligning well with traditional US university admissions criteria and evaluations.

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computer Science is not Software Engineering. A PhD does not translate to real world engineering skills. If you just go through a bachelors CS curriculum, designed to give a survey of all topics in academic computer science, that wouldn't make you a competent engineer. This is especially true now that through the internet, just about anyone with a laptop can get as good as they want at software engineering without ev…

That’s a fair point but the kind of interview this course is preparing you for is a CS test, not a practical software engineering test.

Yes but the interviews are primarily used to screen candidates for SWE roles
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