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Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

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Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#281

Post by SllX »

actuator wrote: post #272
SllX wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t the goddamned playground with a bigger kid picking on a smaller kid. These are two nations at War and nobody has a defense pact or commitment with Ukraine because the concern was that making that pact would inevitably lead to a Russia-NATO war. Our morals and ideals are not universally shared by our adversaries, and our adversaries include two Nuclear powers with ICBMs. One of them is the instigator in thi…

While we don't have a pact with Ukraine, let us not forget that they gave up their nuclear arsenal in 1994 because they were given security assurances. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit... It is better that they had trusted themselves than nations that will give up on them.

Good point, and I can’t disagree. I have for a long time largely felt the same way about Europe and Japan re-militarizing on the theory that while it is good to have allies, it is better to have allies armed to the teeth and prepared to defend themselves too if our politics ever took a turn for the stupid and we indulged our isolationist tendencies again.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#282

Post by iostream24 »

pakitan wrote: post #269
iostream24 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that swift decisive action in a coordinated fashion is the only way to stop an aggressor that suggest that everyone else needs to also lie down and shut up or they will get a thrashing too. Game theory says “on three JUMP HIM!” Multiple entities need to act with force in non economic ways that render collective bullying impossible. Game theory says “gang up now instead of letting your strongest get pic…

> Game theory says “on three JUMP HIM!” Yes, sure. But what you're betting on here is that when Sweden says "on three JUMP HIM!", the rest will follow. And when you have multiple countries now refusing to take Russia out of SWIFT, which is a relatively benign measure, compared to an all-out war, how confident are you that they will come in your defense in case of an actual war against a nuclear power?

Also

> > Game theory says “on three JUMP HIM!” > Yes, sure. But what you're betting on here is that when Sweden says "on three JUMP HIM!", the rest will follow

Which is precisely what NATO provides

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#283

Post by pinephoneguy »

voisin wrote: post #16
bjoli wrote: post #9

Well then, Congratulations Russia! You have just given the Swedish NATO-movement more support than they could have ever mustered themselves! I have always been very sceptical of NATO membership, but the last month I changed opinion.

Why were you skeptical of NATO membership? What are the downsides?

As an American I hate NATO, that's a great way to start another World War.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#284

Post by rhino369 »

hnarn wrote: post #114
rhino369 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll get nuked if Russia and the West ever are stupid enough to start WWIII.

Even if you were correct, does it matter that your European country is not nuked when the rest of them are?

Yes. You'll have to shetler in place for several weeks until radiation recedes. Your economy will be ruined. And you'll have one hell of a refugee problem. But that is still a lot better than having all that plus your cities burned to ground.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#285

Post by belter »

toxik wrote: post #274
belter wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its two non NATO members. Europe would not do for them what does not do for Ukraine.

You are completely ignorant of the current status and history of Europe. An attempted invasion of Finland and Sweden would be an unambiguous declaration of war on the European Union, there is no other interpretation. China would, no doubt, take such an opportunity to move on its military goals (eg Taiwan). It would mark the beginning of a third world war. If you don't even believe that the EU would defend its own ter…

Its not a question of being insane. It's different if you can have your boys back in body bags. You forgot this is the second war in European territory after the Yugoslavian wars. For months Sarajevo was being shelled and nothing was done until the US decided it was time to bomb.

The Netherlands had a full battalion protecting a Bosnian enclave and let 7000 men be killed in front of their eyes. The Dutch government was not willing to order an air strike to protect their own troops.

Unless it's NATO, I guarantee you, nothing will be done. They are not even willing to cut gas import from Russia....

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#286

Post by sto_hristo »

sofixa wrote: post #243
sto_hristo wrote: post #191

So basically Russia said: We will murder you if you don something we don't like. This clearly calls for an economic sanction against .

Putin and his minister of foreign affairs are hardly "some random guy that brushed elbows with Putin once".

Post written before the sanctions on Putin and Lavrov were implemented. Nevertheless, killing continues.

And now China is getting in the mood for some exercises. Around Taiwan. Gotta get fit for that hot summer that is coming. But that is nothing that some demonstration on the street, little bit of sanctions here and there can't avert, right?

WW2 also started like that. Someone took some land, others didn't do jack shit about it. Then it escalated and everyone was at it. But without nukes as they were yet to be invented, shortly after.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#287

Post by unethical_ban »

Ekaros wrote: post #34
travisgriggs wrote: post #24

We seem to be at an impass. NATO exists to help people not feel threatened by Russia. Putin has decided that the mere existence of a real NATO is a threat to Russia (he's fine with a paper tiger institution that is all but imaginary). It's like a European version of 1860 in the US. As an American, I'd be (emotionally, but not rationally) glad to just put an end to 100 years of Russian aggression, mostly because I'm a…

It really makes perfect sense. USA has long history of imperialism and anti-democratic actions. And USA is core of NATO. Any sane country knows that only safe way is to have reasonable buffer zone against such well known aggressor.

I am interested if you are Serbian or Russian.

The Serbians I have talked to regarding the war with Ukraine seem to be very neutral, beginning any discussion with a criticism of NATO rather than a criticism of Russia for invading a neighbor.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#288

Post by jopsen »

cjblomqvist wrote: post #273
jopsen wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, whatabout the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan? "whatabout" doesn't justify anything else. But I'll play. In both cases, there was a broad coalition. Troops didn't start an invasion without clear demands. Russia lied about their demands, said their troop deployment was for exercises. Until recently they maintained they weren't going to invade. Say what you want about Iraq and Afghanistan, but the intention of…

Whatabout: I see your point, and as stated I'm not in favor of the current situation. My point is I can see similarities to wars started by the US/west - and I believe lots of outrage come from people who supported those efforts. Either I'm missing something (thus the implied question "What's the significant difference?") or I guess it's hypocrisy? (1) according to Russia (Russian perspective) I'm pretty sure the US…

> What are the significant differences that justified killing (directly or indirectly) many tens of thousands and messing up a country for 20 years, that still makes it valid to have outrage for the current situation? I'm genuinely curious!

We are more enlightened than we were 20 years ago. Just to mention one. (Also lots of people weren't in favor of Iraq of Afghanistan)

More importantly even if the US did overreact or oversell the justification for it's wars. The US didn't act alone, nor were they anywhere near as dishonest as Russia have been.

It appears to me that Russia purposefully made diplomatic solutions impossible.

> (2) I think the other comment put it best. Bush and co lied about the situation (there being WMDs). And is it OK now if Putin regrets his invasion 2028?

He had 8 years to regret the invasion he made in 2014, right?

But no -- it's not okay now.. but if in 8 years Putin comes out says it was wrong, I'll give him more credibility afterwards.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#289

Post by jacquesm »

pinephoneguy wrote: post #283
voisin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why were you skeptical of NATO membership? What are the downsides?

As an American I hate NATO, that's a great way to start another World War.

On the contrary: NATO is what has stopped another world war. For decades. Non-agression pacts with mutual defense clauses are a pretty stiff deterrent.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#290

Post by speeder »

svarnypetr wrote: post #138
speeder wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine added that they will join NATO to their constitution, and in the past months NATO started to ramp up the amount of NATO weaponry in or near Ukraine. Russia reaction is basically the reaction of anyone cornered, something Sun Tzu warned about, if someone is cornered they will fight back hard because they can't retreat, they can only go forward, through whoever is cornering them.

I did not make a reconstruction of the timeline, but weren't the NATO amounts growing only after the Russian troops started growing and doing their larger and larger exercises that seemed worrying (and escalated now into the invasion)?

NATO started growing when Russia was still all kinds of fucked up, with the first phase being in 1997 if I remember correctly.
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