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Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

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Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#261
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just plainly not the definition of a ponzi scheme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

That’s just semantics at this point. I would encourage you to address the statement being made and ignore the technical definition of the phrase. To restate without the offending phrase: [T]he idea that the promotion of crypto thus far has existed to allow early adopters to cash out at the apparent expense of later adopters, while bringing essentially no other utility to any of its backers or the public at large, is…

And the semantics matter. When we are using words that mean specific things. Other wise why even care what words we use? Just throw something and expect everyone automatically understand.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#262
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're moving the goal posts. It's fine to be against cryptocurrencies, but I think it damages your credibility when you claim bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. Since it shows a lack of understanding of what a ponzi scheme actually is. By you I don't mean you in particular, I mean it in a more general sense.

Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme.

What isn't Ponzi scheme then?

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#263
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ponzi scheme? Perhaps not. So maybe we need a new word? It's a new invention, and thus might require a new lexicon to capture its essence.

Here are some terms that already exists: 'economic bubble', 'pump and dump', 'greater fool theory', ...

'Mania' etc.

There is nothing special about crypto apart it being digital and new... Art, collectibles, real estate... Many things have been overvalued with basis that prices have always gone up and being paid by those acquiring them later...

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#264
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the product being sold in this example is a season ticket, not an NFT. The NFT part of the product has no relevance to why it’s valuable. The valuable part is the promise by the event organizer to save a spot for you. Every major sports team has had this product for decades. It’s literally the same thing as having season tickets to the White Sox or something. The blockchain has added no value to the transaction.

> The blockchain has added no value to the transaction. it does make it impossible to make and sell fakes?

Hah, no it doesn't; anyone can mint what they claim is a season ticket right now. The buyer still has to verify that what they're purchasing is genuine.

On the other hand, it's probably easier for Coachella to maintain a public list of valid ticket NFTs than it is for them to maintain a P2P marketplace for items that change hands very rarely. And also it means that any fraud that occurs is Not Their Problem.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#265
post #169
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is inflated and has been bid up. Cryptos are certainly no exception, it's only gotten worse in the last two years with all the FOMO they fostered and salesman that gathered to profit off my disillusioned generation. To each their own, but I think the idea that TINA to crypto is plain silly, yet I know more people (am millennial) owning crypto than stocks, always with this notion that TINA. At least with st…

Ethereum has revenue 1b per month - and that’s 100% profit. It’s highly undervalued at the moment.

You mean miner fees? How's that a 100% margin after hardware and electricity? Sure if the network transfers to a PoS/ETH2 model those operating costs go down, but so will transaction fees, hence revenue, with the planned sharding, transaction wrapping/bundling (I'm forgetting the terminology here) and burning, no? It also seems necessary to gut those transaction costs if ETH wants to be useful. Even then, that staking model isn't exactly costless either for nodes, they do have to freeze assets therefore giving it opportunity cost and making their goods highly illiquid.

I'd add, if your revenue figure is right, 12B profit (let's be generous) isn't exactly something to drool about on a 250B base. A 5% yield is of course fine if sustainable, arguably high end (in line with sectors like oil, but below sin sectors and specific stocks), but I'd bet 5% is not the sort of returns the crypto crowd is aiming for, not even close. There are safer ways to earn 5%.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. It comes down to information asymmetry. Harder to trick and scam accredited investors Most token sales make good money with very low effort scams

Sadly a lot of token sales were pump and dumps through VCs, so even this is not true. SEC registering looks like a better filter for now.

But here the VCs are the criminals and the predators not the victim of the scam. VCs are more sophisticated to avoid being the victim

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#267
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a couple of "token sales" (they don't call them that) that only allowed accredited investors to invest, and had their "token sales" registered with the SEC before they went live with them. If those were designed to defraud the investors, I'm pretty sure SEC would go after those first.

Of course, any SEC-registered token probably won't be allowed to do anything interesting so there's no point in investing.

By interesting I assume you mean a scam since I've never seen anything technically interesting from a token sale

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#268
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is inflated and has been bid up. Cryptos are certainly no exception, it's only gotten worse in the last two years with all the FOMO they fostered and salesman that gathered to profit off my disillusioned generation. To each their own, but I think the idea that TINA to crypto is plain silly, yet I know more people (am millennial) owning crypto than stocks, always with this notion that TINA. At least with st…

yes, crypto is inflated, and a pump and dump, but there is opportunity there, and hope. and that is what most retail are buying. i mean something changed in the stock market after 2008. i'm not really educated enough in finance, but it seems the value of stocks just went vertical. and since the covid pandemic everything has doubled in value. i know its related to decrease in value of usd but since my salary doesnt ev…

FWIW, my point isn't that crypto is doomed and entirely useless - I have a more nuanced opinion (tho no position) but that's not why I'm commenting. I also don't mean to be giving advice to anyway, just sharing opinions while it's on topic. My point is that a whole damn lot of my age group peers have drunk the Kool-Aid that crypto is the only game in town and that there is no alternative, which is silly to be respectful, and foolish to be less so.

No one rational would argue there is no opportunity there, there's tremendous trading opportunity in any market and it only goes up (as well as the risk) the more volatile and unregulated it is. There's also tremendous opportunity to make money in the Turkish market, Russian ones these days I bet will mint millionaires. That doesn't say anything regarding if it's a good idea or not to partake, let alone to buy, pray and hodl.

>that is what most retail are buying.

That kills your opportunity, going to the crowded asset isn't exactly good for you, it just increases your cost basis and reduces your earnings or dividend yield (not that you get one with most cryptos). It's good if you're trading and have an edge in that game tho, but that's not what people I know do when they buy crypto for the long haul or gamble for the short term.

>if i invest in stocks, at best i will get 2x after 5 years, at worst i will be buying at the peak of the everything bubble

That seems to be the general theme. Pessimistic outlook on the best case for stock with an optimistic outlook for the best case in crypto while ignoring it's worst case. Also while ignoring the monumental amount of fraud and open scheming in crypto (CC: all the influencers and their literally worthless NFTs, the rugs, the thefts, the bot-phishing), doesn't exactly scream "rational, not a bubble market".

Why not realistically looking about the worst case for both rather than focus on the best case for one? For crypto it's possibly getting offramps rugged by governments or even simply the market changing it's mind - with no intrinsic value there's basically no floor. In both cases you get wiped entirely. For stocks there'll always be a floor as they represent stakes in the actual economy, real companies with real balance and earnings sheet. Worst case historically is a -90%, but that went with the great depression and famine, you'll have bigger worries. A 2008 style historic crisis is a mere -50%.

I think owning crypto makes sense, but I can't understand the rationale behind being all-in crypto with significant life savings which I see a lot. If it's really gonna overtake the entire fiat system, you'll be just fine even without risking to lose everything you own in the even it's a dud and doesn't overtake the financial system.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#269

Why do people trust middlemen to handle their crypto in a safe manner? The whole idea behind crypto is that it's decentralized. Interacting with exchanges, investment platforms, etc is asking for trouble. Assume any exchange is another MtGox waiting to happen. Assume you no longer own your funds once you interact with any crypto platform. Fraud is rampant in the crypto scene and has been since the beginning. And for…

The only way cryptocurrency goes mainstream is with these middlemen you speak of. Do you really think the average person has the knowledge and time to manage this themselves? It is far from decentralized, but the entire idea of a decentralized financial system is nothing more than a pipe dream.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#270
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because it crosses the line into censorable speech

Payments are not speech. Find a better argument.

except that sometimes they reduce to speech. especially in cases where there are incidental human rights violations suppressing those payments. the examples why this cannot be left up to arbitrary governments are abundant. so there's nothing wrong with my argument. if you disagree then please show proof.

by the way just a heads up I suggest you learn the value of basic human kindness in your manner.

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