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Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

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Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#231

Post by phil21 »

jmyeet wrote: post #26

Crypto may well be the biggest solution looking for a problem I've ever seen. Apart from the obvious issues (eg energy expenditure) the one myth that needs to die about crypto is that it is extragovernmental and indictments such as this and the Bitfinex laundering case recently should underline that. The simple fact is that the developed world could shut down what little utility cryptocurrencies (and NFTs) have tomor…

> Crypto may well be the biggest solution looking for a problem I've ever seen.

It seems like it precisely solved the problem it originally claimed to solve to me. Permissionless p2p transactions. Full stop, no political baggage to argue about.

I think it's others look for "bigger" problems for it to fill that are the problem, not the tech itself.

Blockchain's killer app is Bitcoin. Someday folks will finally realize this.

Many will think it's useless until they unfortunately find a need for it.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#232

Post by logicalmonster »

civilized wrote: post #223
logicalmonster wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the concept is "decentralized payments are resistant to government intervention", then wouldn't the government killing crypto be proof that the concept failed? Anything can be physically destroyed and anybody can be physically jailed or killed, so I suppose there will never be a currency that is 100% immune to punitive government action. But it seems like a vindication of the concept if some government felt thre…

A lot of people want crypto banned simply because its uses seem to be almost entirely restricted to criminal activity and speculation (i.e. gambling).

> A lot of people

1) Despite crypto being around for just over a decade and real commerce being transacted with it, we're still in the frighteningly early days of its use. I'd say that even super-smart technical people are just barely scratching the surface and it's probably going to be about 3-5 years before an average technical person has a proper understanding of what a blockchain is and how it works, let alone understanding the ramifications of oracles when combined with smart contracts. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but there's no chance that the general public really understands crypto right now, especially when their impression of it comes from a media that doesn't understand it either.

2) Regardless of most peoples' understanding of it, it should go without saying that human rights should not be up to a poll.

> want crypto banned simply because its uses seem to be almost entirely restricted to criminal activity

1) I don't know what percentage of crypto uses are normal commerce and which are criminal actions, but I know firsthand that crypto is used for all kinds of business payments for years.

2) You might as well advocate banning paper cash, most banks, etc if you want to ban something tied to crime.

> and speculation (i.e. gambling).

It should go without saying that even the worst excesses of gambling are legal in a free society.

If you want to ban all financial speculation, you might as well ban all betting and the stock market too.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#233

Post by phs318u »

dsco wrote: post #176
NelsonMinar wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cryptocurrency is the solution for a very valuable problem. How do you commit financial crimes and frauds in a way just new enough to confuse people that what you're doing may be valuable?

It could provide as a store and transpiration means of value in times of crisis. For instance some of the Ukrainian banks are now shutdown. If you had crypto you could access your wealth. Same thing applies for Russian citizens who have nothing to do with the war but will soon have their assets frozen. Did you consider all use cases before posting, or just glee at yet another anti crypto post on HN and thought “yay!…

Assuming ill-intent is not an argument. Engage with the argument. This is HN.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#234

Post by arcticbull »

dsco wrote: post #176
NelsonMinar wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cryptocurrency is the solution for a very valuable problem. How do you commit financial crimes and frauds in a way just new enough to confuse people that what you're doing may be valuable?

It could provide as a store and transpiration means of value in times of crisis. For instance some of the Ukrainian banks are now shutdown. If you had crypto you could access your wealth. Same thing applies for Russian citizens who have nothing to do with the war but will soon have their assets frozen. Did you consider all use cases before posting, or just glee at yet another anti crypto post on HN and thought “yay!…

> For instance some of the Ukrainian banks are now shutdown. If you had crypto you could access your wealth.

For instance, the Russians were cut off SWIFT. If the oligarchs had crypto, they could access their wealth and render sanctions ineffective.

Believe it or not the Ukrainians are in a war, and currency is not their biggest problem - that would be the tanks, and the bombs and the planes. Once the war resolves, so will their access to money. On the other hand, systems designed to evade sanctions are making that process longer and more painful - and more likely to resolve in the aggressors favor, as the Russians are better capitalized. The Russian people need to feel the pain to pressure their government to end the conflict.

Some pain is good, and so is our ability to inflict it.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#235

Post by arcticbull »

petenick wrote: post #112
notabotyet wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do thousands of transactions with thousands of people every day without committing financial crimes and without paying any fees. It's extremely valuable to my businesses. Wrenches can be used as weapons but they are also essential for plumbers.

Curious - what is your use case?

Folks tend not to answer this question because they know it's not a good one.

Let's take bitpay, probably the largest and oldest merchant processing system for crypto transactions. They publish stats. [1]

- 40% of all of their transactions globally are for prepaid gift cards.

- 20% of all of their transactions globally are for "internet."

- 14% of all of their transactions globally are for "vpn."

So 75% of all of their transactions globally are for merchant categories closely associated with fraud. And the reason is obvious: it's slower, more expensive and less convenient than using a credit or debit card. So it self-selects.

Folks who "find a way to make it work" are usually ideological, in crypto (i.e. found other people who don't care that it's impractical or criminal) or have otherwise found ways of "processing crypto transactions" (i.e. using bitpay where the merchants do not receive crypto because of course they don't why would they).

[1] https://bitpay.com/stats/

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#236

Post by blueprint »

Yetioko wrote: post #171
blueprint wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bullshit. People deserve a way to send money without middlemen and unfortunately that requires a means of attempting censorship resistance or at least consensus within a nearly arbitrarily adversarial network.

Your logic doesn't make sense. You are part of a system like a country. You are part of that country and the country acts on your behalf. IF there is a good reason that the state only allows sending money after certain criteria are met, its for the good of the country (normal countries, not corrupt ones). Then the country and its laws has the right to reduce that freedom. You might believe in the republic idea of eve…

I'm not the property of a government. And please show me where rights are granted to governments and by who and for what basic purpose.

And it's not always about govs.

You may be imprisoned. but dont imprison others with your assumptions

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#237

Post by blueprint »

malermeister wrote: post #154
blueprint wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bullshit. People deserve a way to send money without middlemen and unfortunately that requires a means of attempting censorship resistance or at least consensus within a nearly arbitrarily adversarial network.

> People deserve a way to send money without middlemen Why? Please don't just make unfounded assertions.

because it crosses the line into censorable speech

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#238

Post by civilized »

logicalmonster wrote: post #232
civilized wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people want crypto banned simply because its uses seem to be almost entirely restricted to criminal activity and speculation (i.e. gambling).

> A lot of people 1) Despite crypto being around for just over a decade and real commerce being transacted with it, we're still in the frighteningly early days of its use. I'd say that even super-smart technical people are just barely scratching the surface and it's probably going to be about 3-5 years before an average technical person has a proper understanding of what a blockchain is and how it works, let alone un…

I stand by my statements. Bitcoin is a bad currency for anyone but criminals and speculators. People toy with using it for legitimate purposes, but it's fundamentally not competitive.

Most of your response is based on a failure to understand how useful things that can be misused are different from things that have virtually no good use and lots of bad ones. If Bitcoin was banned tomorrow, the world would be no worse off.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#239

Post by lottin »

teddyh wrote: post #163
malermeister wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People deserve a way to send money without middlemen Why? Please don't just make unfounded assertions.

The free movement of capital is a long-established right in Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market#Capital

That's the European single market. Single market means freedom of movement of goods and services, capital and labour. In other words, it's not just capital. And it applies to a small set of countries which all agree to having a number of common rules and regulations. And it's not without intermediaries.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#240

Post by lottin »

blueprint wrote: post #237
malermeister wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People deserve a way to send money without middlemen Why? Please don't just make unfounded assertions.

because it crosses the line into censorable speech

Payments are not speech. Find a better argument.
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