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Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

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Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#231

Post by phaistra »

jacquesm wrote: post #197
cjblomqvist wrote: post #143

There's a lot of comments about how outrageous the lack of a harsher response (in particular the lack of military action) from the west/NATO/USA is. But, whatabout the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan? Weren't they quite similar (the big difference being that those countries were not close to the US geographically and not really posing a big threat). Why was those invasions ok but not this one? Just to make clear: I…

> whatabout Yes, that's what that's called.

Are you going to address his point?

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#232

Post by dragonwriter »

whatshisface wrote: post #221
pakitan wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> defensive alliance Yeah, right. Remind me please who was NATO defending against during the military operation in Libya? Iraq? Regarding the rest of your arguments, whether you want to support joining NATO is your own business. I'm just looking at it from a game theory perspective. As far as I remember, so far there haven't been threats from Russia against Sweden. Now you want to join and there is a threat. You may…

> Remind me please who was NATO defending against during the military operation in Libya? Iraq? It would be easier to explain why NATO invaded Iraq if it actually had. :-) The Coalition invaded Iraq.

> It would be easier to explain why NATO invaded Iraq if it actually had.

NATO, as such (not just NATO members operating outside of the alliance) conducted a couple different (all non-combat, training and capacity development) military missions in Iraq. IIRC one from 2004-2011ish and one starting around 2018, maybe something in between.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#233

Post by dragonwriter »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #140
pakitan wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you should reconsider your logic? Ukraine wasn't attacked because it's a NATO member, it was attacked because (among other things) it wanted to become NATO member. There isn't a process where you just submit your wish to become a member and the next day, voila, you're accepted! It's a long process and that's when you'll be most vulnerable to attack.

Then presumably Georgia, Chechnya, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and the rest were also attacked because they wanted to join NATO?

> Then presumably Georgia, Chechnya, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and the rest were also attacked because they wanted to join NATO?

Georgia (of which South Ossetia and Abkhazia are part), yes, pretty explicitly. Chechnya is a different and long-running conflict (the Chechen Wars, in terms of their initiation, predate the late 1990s NATO expansion.)

Georgia still wants to join NATO.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#234

Post by avgcorrection »

travisgriggs wrote: post #207
avgcorrection wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What concretely does it mean to “put an end to 100 years of Russian aggression” for America? Maybe be more mindful of what you say.

Fair enough. This is actually a good call out. I tried to caveat with the "emotional but not rational". But perhaps that does not communicate well enough. The historical narrative that has been told people of my age for much of their formative years is the above. Basically, Russia has been a thorn in Western World's side since the communist revolution, with leaders like Stalin and followers. Prior to that, despite so…

Thank you for the elaboration.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#235

Post by iostream24 »

iso1631 wrote: post #11
vinceguidry wrote: post #4

It's like Russia was expecting to be able to conduct the largest aggressive conventional military operation in Europe since WW2 and not completely flip the apple cart of the global order.

In terms of troops and materiel deployed in the first few days, how does this compare to (either) Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or Korea?

No post body was provided.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#236

Post by iostream24 »

roughly wrote: post #201
vinceguidry wrote: post #4

It's like Russia was expecting to be able to conduct the largest aggressive conventional military operation in Europe since WW2 and not completely flip the apple cart of the global order.

The Russian goal _is_ to flip the apple cart of the global order. The global order, as Russia perceives it, sucks for Russia, and they’ve been pretty loud on that point for a long time.

No post body was provided.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#237

Post by laserdancepony »

Animats wrote: post #116
zucked wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO has not been viewed favorably in recent years, and some of it is for good reason. As much as I dislike Trump, he is right that many NATO members don't contribute their fair share. Many countries, even wealthy, highly developed ones, are missing the 2% target by a wide margin. On the name and shame highlight reel is: Norway, Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and the list goes on. I suspect we will se…

Most European countries have surprisingly dinky armies today. Germany has only 60,000 troops for a population of 83 million. Norway has only 3,725. France has 118,000. The UK has 82,000. There hasn't been much for them to do in decades. That just changed. Sweden has 24,000 on active duty. Finland has about 21,000. Large for the size of the countries. Both have a draft. Switzerland has 120,000 troops on active duty, a…

I don't know where you got your numbers, but the german Bundeswehr has a total strength of about 185k and is limited by the two plus four treaty to a maximum strength of 370k. Way less than the 500k and up the old west german Bundeswehr had.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#238

Post by unethical_ban »

causi wrote: post #22
belter wrote: post #5

As I wrote in another thread today, current EU and US leaders are asleep at the wheel. We have a different dynamic. Talking about sanctions looks almost pathetic. The analogy here is, you live in a community and one of your neighbors just lost it completely and is shooting and shelling another neighbor. Not to raise the hostilities...you scream at him he wont be invited anymore for the Christmas party and you will co…

Seven hundred billion dollars a year and we can't even defend the weak unless it looks profitable on the balance sheet. Never have I been more ashamed to be American than I was yesterday.

I don't think money is the primary reason the US is holding off. Perhaps it's the population of the US not yet demanding intervention, maybe it's the idea that Russians and Americans openly shooting at each other means an actual continental war in Europe with nuclear powers.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#239

Post by unethical_ban »

Ekaros wrote: post #135
watwut wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, if this is dig at Biden, he is not doing that badly and is actually better predictable. Also, you don't seem to know what NATO is.

I know, but I have observed what countries in NATO have done. And it's nothing but pure evil. And sadly there has been zero consequences...

Serbian?

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#240

Post by lamontcg »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #32
rhino369 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even worse, when you invade someone who tried to join NATO, was given the same warning, didn't join NATO, and then was invaded anyway. Finland and Sweden should join now while Russia doesn't have the ability to invade (because their forces are busy in Ukraine).

Whether they join or not, Finland and Sweden better beef up their defenses, starting yesterday...

Time for Finland and Sweden to do some casual joint military exercises with NATO where a pile of NATO jets get parked on runways all around those countries and some naval vessels pull into their ports. Just military people chilling and shooting the shit with other military people.
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