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Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

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Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#221

Post by whatshisface »

pakitan wrote: post #186
hnarn wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logic is that attacking a country that attempts to join a defensive alliance (Ukraine) underlines the undeniable necessity of that alliance existing in the first place. There would not be a point in joining Nato if Russia was a paper tiger, but they're working very hard to prove that they are not. They are painting a picture of themselves as violent, unpredictable and hostile to democratic values that we (Swedes)…

> defensive alliance Yeah, right. Remind me please who was NATO defending against during the military operation in Libya? Iraq? Regarding the rest of your arguments, whether you want to support joining NATO is your own business. I'm just looking at it from a game theory perspective. As far as I remember, so far there haven't been threats from Russia against Sweden. Now you want to join and there is a threat. You may…

>Remind me please who was NATO defending against during the military operation in Libya? Iraq?

It would be easier to explain why NATO invaded Iraq if it actually had. :-) The Coalition invaded Iraq.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#222

Post by toxik »

belter wrote: post #120
sharken wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an empty threat from Putin, he may be close to a madman but he is not stupid. Attacking NATO will mean his removal from power, most likely by someone within his own ranks. If Sweden or Finland wants in, then NATO should comply as fast as possible.

Technically, if there were attacked this evening, nobody in the US or EU would come to help them. They would be AND are in the same situation as Ukraine.

Let me get this straight, you believe that if Russia invaded northern Europe outright, central and south Europe would not intervene?

I guess some topics aren’t great to discuss on HN.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#223

Post by mardifoufs »

jopsen wrote: post #214
cjblomqvist wrote: post #143

There's a lot of comments about how outrageous the lack of a harsher response (in particular the lack of military action) from the west/NATO/USA is. But, whatabout the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan? Weren't they quite similar (the big difference being that those countries were not close to the US geographically and not really posing a big threat). Why was those invasions ok but not this one? Just to make clear: I…

> But, whatabout the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan? "whatabout" doesn't justify anything else. But I'll play. In both cases, there was a broad coalition. Troops didn't start an invasion without clear demands. Russia lied about their demands, said their troop deployment was for exercises. Until recently they maintained they weren't going to invade. Say what you want about Iraq and Afghanistan, but the intention of…

The self defense claim for Afghanistan is just as flimsy as Russian claim of self defense in ukraine (they harbour our ennemies/nazis/etc). I'm all for condemning the russian invasion without necessarily bringing up the past but that does not mean you have to literally justify what america did in afghanistan. The only reason why it seems more reasonable to you aren't russian, and you think your team had better intentions.

Also so what if they admitted it was a mistake in iraq? If putin admits ukraine was a mistake in 5 years is everything okay and we can just not be allowed to bring that event up again? The complete destabilization that war caused isn't just something you can dismiss because they said oopsie (not even apologizing). Calling the american diplomacy efforts in 2003 not disingenuous is just completely flat out wrong. It was probably even more dishonest than what putin has been doing, with fake leaks to the media and moving goalposts to assure an invasion will inevitably happen. Bush wanted the iraq war and to topple saddam no matter what concession he was willing to make

Again, no need to even compare the events and I get you don't fully approve of the wars but the justification for the 2 wars is swinging way way too far into american apologism.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#224

Post by ynfnehf »

pakitan wrote: post #94
hnarn wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is not a member of Nato. Reconsider the logic in your line of thought.

Maybe you should reconsider your logic? Ukraine wasn't attacked because it's a NATO member, it was attacked because (among other things) it wanted to become NATO member. There isn't a process where you just submit your wish to become a member and the next day, voila, you're accepted! It's a long process and that's when you'll be most vulnerable to attack.

The former Secretary General of NATO disagrees with you. For Sweden and Finland at least. Source in Finnish, but google translates it pretty well https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-12268949 https://yle-fi.translate.goog/uutiset/3-12268949?_x_tr_sl=fi... "Finland and Sweden meet the membership criteria and accession would be done quickly by NATO, even overnight."

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#225

Post by vinceguidry »

hnarn wrote: post #139
iso1631 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of troops and materiel deployed in the first few days, how does this compare to (either) Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or Korea?

It doesn't, because none of them are in Europe, as the comment you replied to specified.

It wasn't when he commented, I added it in after to clarify.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#226

Post by fredthomsen »

T-zex wrote: post #174
hnarn wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many pros and cons, but from a Swedish perspective, one of the obvious "downsides" would be an end to the idea of Swedish neutrality, which has been a thing since the early 1800's. This may be a hard thing to relate to if you're not a Swede, but if you imagine any political tradition in your country that's over 200 years old, you may understand that the idea of changing it generates some reluctance. I would…

Had a Swedish colleague and he said he did a military service. Answering to the question "why" he told us that Swedish must prepare not for the if but for when Russia invades. That was before the Georgian war when Russia seemed to be less aggressive. I guess the perspective should be changing within the country.

Swedish foreign policy and neutrality originates from all the wars they fought against Russia prior to the 1800s.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#227

Post by SllX »

ROTMetro wrote: post #220
SllX wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t the goddamned playground with a bigger kid picking on a smaller kid. These are two nations at War and nobody has a defense pact or commitment with Ukraine because the concern was that making that pact would inevitably lead to a Russia-NATO war. Our morals and ideals are not universally shared by our adversaries, and our adversaries include two Nuclear powers with ICBMs. One of them is the instigator in thi…

Just for clarity, Ukraine pleaded for the defense pact, we refused it because the other side scared us too much. Sure seems like a playground bully. But yeah, stand by the 'we didn't get involved because then Russia would invade', wooh, that worked out well. I think the path you support is leading to a more unstable nuclear environment then if we would have been firm. But sure, it's just Czechoslovakia, I mean Ukrain…

Three things:

1. I did not share my thoughts on what we should or shouldn’t do, nor what we should have or shouldn’t have done. Don’t presume to know my position. The truth is I don’t know what we should have done or should do now, but I know I’m not in a rush to get in a shooting war with another nuclear power without considering that we may not actually survive it.

2. Treating the battlefield like a playground cheapens the conflict and is disrespectful to those on the battlefield.

3. International conflict and diplomacy is not just playground bullying. The leaders of every single NATO nation including the United States have a responsibility to their own people first and foremost and it is not at all obvious how to deal with Putin. This isn’t the Sudetenland in 1938, nor Poland 1939; Poland actually had defense pacts which were not honored and was invaded by two of the most powerful countries in the world in a world that had not yet invented nuclear weapons nor ICBMs. This is Ukraine 2022 in a very different world with very different power dynamics, communications and much more destructive weapons technologies. There is a lot more at stake and to disregard that is foolishness.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#228

Post by ynfnehf »

camhart wrote: post #54

Russia shouldn't be allowed to force decisions like this on any country. Let them join. We kicked the can down the road with Ukraine and look where that landed Ukraine. 2008 and 2014 we gave in and allowed Russia to do what they wanted. 2022 and Western countries are allowing it again. Its despicable. I don't want war. I don't want to go to war. But when someone approaches you and says "I own you" you either fight ba…

Note that it has been the choice of Sweden and Finland not to be a part of NATO. NATO would be more than happy to let them join, and the process would probably be quite quick as well. I think this is quite a significant difference from the situation with Ukraine.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#229

Post by BuckRogers »

dragontamer wrote: post #195
BuckRogers wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just my opinion based on what I know. I hope whatever is done, whether it's my viewpoint or yours, is the correct one. There is likely no right answer here, just degrees of success and it depends how many innocent Ukrainians you're prepared to let die (and the citizens of the next nation on Putin's list). I'm praying for President Biden so he may make the right decision. So far, I'm dismayed. It does sound like…

> That's the problem. We already learned what happens next. No. You missed the lesson. USA is largely a peaceful nation that's many thousands of miles away from this conflict. It takes an incredible amount of evil before the US people are roused into action. The US people in 1939 or 1940 weren't ignorant. Even as Hitler rose and took over large swaths of Europe, the US citizen was not roused into action. It still too…

I'm more representative of the US today than the long gone population of 1939 is at this point.

In 1939, the nation was weary of being involved with European wars, having just finished one 20 years prior. My family fought in both of them. My grandfather (RIP) had scars up and down his body from German gunfire. My great grandfather, who was a grandchild of Germany himself, fought in the French trenches before him. I'm a descendent of the people of 1939 USA, we did learn and we changed. I'm the product.

Further, I think I am taking the lesson correctly. It's not about the "wisdom of the masses" (which I do not believe in) as you suggest, but rather doing the right thing as soon as possible. We made a mistake in 1939, I believe the people of the US today are a proud and noble people, unafraid of self-sacrifice and doing the right thing for humanity and world peace.

Hitler nearly won. I've never seen a more worthy time to commit our lives to a cause than today, at least in the course of my life.

This is a once in a lifetime calling of our conscience that we have to answer. We'll be answering it anyway, on less favorable terms later on.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#230

Post by [deleted] »

anonyfox wrote: post #66

As a German I was today years old when I learned that sweden isnt part of the nato already … like the current secretary even sounds swedish by name … whelp Edit: really don’t want to sound ignorant here, just that while growing up and traveling around Central Europe there was a strong belief that we‘re all in the same boat and I even remember maps showing all countries (except Switzerland) in shades of „blue“ but … I…

[deleted]
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