"We'll invade you if you join NATO" loses its power a bit when you invade people who haven't joined NATO.
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Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
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Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
Seven hundred billion dollars a year and we can't even defend the weak unless it looks profitable on the balance sheet. Never have I been more ashamed to be American than I was yesterday.
This obviously has nothing to do with finances and everything to do with the fact that no one wants soldiers of two nuclear powers shooting guns at each other. This is the actual logic of nuclear weapons, and there is no going back to the world as it was before they existed.
It wouldn't be the first time two nuclear powers fought in a country bordering one of them. Chinese and American soldiers fought in Vietnam.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#73"We'll invade you if you join NATO" loses its power a bit when you invade people who haven't joined NATO.
Putin has been saying for the past decade that he would not tolerate further eastward expansion of NATO, a thoroughly anti-russian alliance. It is a reasonable position. No, invading independent countries is not reasonable. One can hold both these thoughts in their head.
It's not a reasonable position.
It's like me telling my next door neighbor they can't be friends with another neighbor. It's none of my business, and I'd be an asshole for demanding it.
It also places Russia in direct violation of their own agreements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#74I'm ashamed at our (the USA's) response. We have no choice here. When will this stop? Do we allow mutually assured destruction be used to have Putin march his troops into our beloved nation too? What about Georgia, Bosnia, Finland, Sweden? The only option, better done now than later is to ready, arm and prepare all our nuclear warheads, point them at Moscow, and then send our forces into Ukraine, repelling the Russia…
What's the point of NATO if we just defend other countries who don't meet our requirements of NATO?
NATO is _already_ in a tough spot, many countries will fail the 2% spending on defense requirement (though I'm sure Russia is making them reconsider). We can't just be throwing NATO's guarantees around to countries who didn't make it into the alliance yet.
NATO is an alliance, and a defensive alliance at that. The line is literally drawn at Poland and Romania right now. We are debating if that line should include Finland and Sweden.
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There are several requirements to join NATO:
1. The country must want to be part of NATO (and neither Finland nor Sweden wanted to join until recently).
2. The entire rest of NATO must accept them.
3. A few other things, but #1 and #2 are probably the most important. If we get those two things figured out, everything else is cake.
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That being said: support to Ukraine economically and militarily (military aid) is still on the table and looks like its happening. Ukraine will fight its own war, but they can use our weapons while doing so.
That was enough for France when it helped USA during the 1700s Revolutionary war, and the USA certainly remembers France's help in those troubling times. The "Arsenal of Democracy" approach. We likely will offer that to Finland / Sweden if they get attacked by Russia before they join NATO as well.
But getting our blood directly involved in other people's wars is still a very difficult prospect. USA shouldn't overcommit, nor should NATO.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#75I don't understand why Russia, or anyone else, thinks that Ukraine was anywhere near joining NATO. Ukraine had bits of it that were occupied by Russia, specifically Crimea. There was no way Ukraine would have been allowed to join under such circumstances because such occupations would have immediately triggered Article 5. Letting Ukraine into NATO would be tantamount to declaring war on Russia. It was never a real op…
Because if you watched Putin speech, he said Ukraine is not a different country from Russia.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's starting to look like Putin may have miscalculated here.
Yeah, I bet they didn't count on losing the Champions League final. That's about the worst of impact so far.
Likely bigger military losses than expected. Likely bigger sanctions coming than expected. China is not staying out of it completely. I'm optimistic for Ukraine delivering a military defeat to Russia, even if it will cost a lot of blood and tears
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#77Well then, Congratulations Russia! You have just given the Swedish NATO-movement more support than they could have ever mustered themselves! I have always been very sceptical of NATO membership, but the last month I changed opinion.
Why were you skeptical of NATO membership? What are the downsides?
You'll get nuked if Russia and the West ever are stupid enough to start WWIII.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#78Russia shouldn't be allowed to force decisions like this on any country. Let them join. We kicked the can down the road with Ukraine and look where that landed Ukraine. 2008 and 2014 we gave in and allowed Russia to do what they wanted. 2022 and Western countries are allowing it again. Its despicable. I don't want war. I don't want to go to war. But when someone approaches you and says "I own you" you either fight ba…
Who are your troops?
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#79For those wondering why Sweden is included in this threat despite not sharing a border with Russia, Finland and Sweden are like best friends and have been approaching anything regarding NATO and Russia as a unit together. Sweden joining NATO pretty much automatically means Finland also intends to join NATO. Anyway, this threat loses a lot of teeth when the reason Ukraine is getting destroyed at the moment is because…
> Anyway, this threat loses a lot of teeth when the reason Ukraine is getting destroyed at the moment is because they are not in NATO.
It is because they are not in NATO and also did not explicitly abandon the aspiration of joining. The threat is intended to get Finland and Sweden to explicitly disclaim any intent of joining NATO (and maybe make binding commitments), not just to get them to not apply.
OTOH, as you note, it also underscores the benefit of getting into NATO and under the umbrella while Russia’s military is committed to Ukraine.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quoted post unavailable.
Would defending Ukraine with US soldiers be good for the US? Absolutely not. The best outcome for the US is if Ukraine turns into a Vietnam for Russia for the next couple decades, with high casualties for the Russians and high casualties among Ukrainian civilians to keep the whole world strongly against Russia. That doesn't make it right , though. The right thing to do is to help other people even when it doesn't ben…
> The right thing to do is to help other people even when it doesn't benefit you.
Why does it have to be the American men and women getting killed? Russia is never going to cross the ocean and attack us, and if they did they would never win. Why can't the EU defend itself? It ought to be strong enough. If the EU is sustainable it should be able to defend itself without outsourcing 95% of its defense to a foreign power across an ocean. I get that they were weak after WWII but for crying out loud they've had 70 years to recover from that.
As an American, I am sick and tired of my nation getting involved in foreign wars because "it's the right thing to do."