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Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

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Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#61

Post by Workaccount2 »

causi wrote: post #22
belter wrote: post #5

As I wrote in another thread today, current EU and US leaders are asleep at the wheel. We have a different dynamic. Talking about sanctions looks almost pathetic. The analogy here is, you live in a community and one of your neighbors just lost it completely and is shooting and shelling another neighbor. Not to raise the hostilities...you scream at him he wont be invited anymore for the Christmas party and you will co…

Seven hundred billion dollars a year and we can't even defend the weak unless it looks profitable on the balance sheet. Never have I been more ashamed to be American than I was yesterday.

Preventing a direct America vs. Russia conflict is worth much more than $700B

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#62

Post by mindslight »

dragonwriter wrote: post #33
ceejayoz wrote: post #3

"We'll invade you if you join NATO" loses its power a bit when you invade people who haven't joined NATO.

Part of the “justification” for invading Ukraine was that they didn't rule out joining NATO in the future, and in fact have an official policy of seeking NATO membership, which puts them farther along the process than Sweden or Finland. OTOH, Sweden or Finland could probably join more quickly and with less friction if they decided to seek membership, and I can easily see the result of this being pushing Sweden and/or…

I'm sure NATO could come up with some way of quickly accepting a country as something like a protected candidate, making a pledge to defend them against retaliation during the democratic process of deciding to actually join or not. There would be a strong incentive to continue joining NATO afterwards (or face the pending retaliation), but it would certainly mitigate this bullying posture.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#63

Post by ledauphin »

Ekaros wrote: post #34
travisgriggs wrote: post #24

We seem to be at an impass. NATO exists to help people not feel threatened by Russia. Putin has decided that the mere existence of a real NATO is a threat to Russia (he's fine with a paper tiger institution that is all but imaginary). It's like a European version of 1860 in the US. As an American, I'd be (emotionally, but not rationally) glad to just put an end to 100 years of Russian aggression, mostly because I'm a…

It really makes perfect sense. USA has long history of imperialism and anti-democratic actions. And USA is core of NATO. Any sane country knows that only safe way is to have reasonable buffer zone against such well known aggressor.

I want to keep the conversation substantive, but I also would like for you to see what you've said and see if you think you've contributed to the conversation so far:

"[Russia] has long history of imperialism and anti-democratic actions. Any sane country knows that only safe way is to have reasonable buffer zone against such well known aggressor."

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#64

Post by djxfade »

tyre wrote: post #44
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that we're in World War III. We're just trying to pretend that we're not. We're at least at the buildup to it.

This is not a world war. The fighting is specific to a single area. The Vietnam War involved at least double the number of involved countries and wasn’t considered a world war.

World War II also started with fighting in a specific single are, until suddenly it wasn't in a single area anymore...

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#65

Post by watwut »

Ekaros wrote: post #34
travisgriggs wrote: post #24

We seem to be at an impass. NATO exists to help people not feel threatened by Russia. Putin has decided that the mere existence of a real NATO is a threat to Russia (he's fine with a paper tiger institution that is all but imaginary). It's like a European version of 1860 in the US. As an American, I'd be (emotionally, but not rationally) glad to just put an end to 100 years of Russian aggression, mostly because I'm a…

It really makes perfect sense. USA has long history of imperialism and anti-democratic actions. And USA is core of NATO. Any sane country knows that only safe way is to have reasonable buffer zone against such well known aggressor.

This argument is frankly dumb. By that logic, nato would be entitled to demand that Russia gets away from Ukraine, stop engaging with Belarus and it's soldiers leave borders of NATO countries.

Russia borders with nato at multiple places. It should leave those places and create buffer. After all, Russia ia the more aggressive one.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#66

Post by anonyfox »

As a German I was today years old when I learned that sweden isnt part of the nato already … like the current secretary even sounds swedish by name … whelp

Edit: really don’t want to sound ignorant here, just that while growing up and traveling around Central Europe there was a strong belief that we‘re all in the same boat and I even remember maps showing all countries (except Switzerland) in shades of „blue“ but … I never looked more deeply into that - until now

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#67

Post by _0w8t »

systemvoltage wrote: post #28
causi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seven hundred billion dollars a year and we can't even defend the weak unless it looks profitable on the balance sheet. Never have I been more ashamed to be American than I was yesterday.

Quoted post unavailable.

Ukraine repeatedly has being asking for strong air defense. This is their weakest stance against Russia that Russia now takes advantage to the full extend. Ukraine does not ask for soldiers.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#68

Post by sandworm101 »

I don't understand why Russia, or anyone else, thinks that Ukraine was anywhere near joining NATO. Ukraine had bits of it that were occupied by Russia, specifically Crimea. There was no way Ukraine would have been allowed to join under such circumstances because such occupations would have immediately triggered Article 5. Letting Ukraine into NATO would be tantamount to declaring war on Russia. It was never a real option.

What Russia feared was some sort of non-NATO but friendly partnership deal that might see NATO weapons in Ukraine. Actual membership wasn't the issue.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#69

Post by hnarn »

pakitan wrote: post #51
bjoli wrote: post #9

Well then, Congratulations Russia! You have just given the Swedish NATO-movement more support than they could have ever mustered themselves! I have always been very sceptical of NATO membership, but the last month I changed opinion.

You mean so far you've lived a peaceful life and were skeptical of joining NATO but now that you've seen what Russia did to Ukraine, you're tempted to share their fate?

Ukraine is not a member of Nato. Reconsider the logic in your line of thought.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#70

Post by VBprogrammer »

ch4s3 wrote: post #30
VBprogrammer wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I bet they didn't count on losing the Champions League final. That's about the worst of impact so far.

Germany froze the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline project. Russia has a ton of reserves, but this will hobble them economically once the reserves are drawn down. The UK and US are debating seizing property belonging to Putin's circle of supporters, which could be very precarious for him domestically. Protests are breaking out in St. Petersburg and Moscow, and videos are turning up of captured Russian soldiers saying they…

Freezing Nord Steam 2 was an obvious consequence. It must have been priced in to what ever calculation Putin is making. It wasn't in operation yet so it's not clear to me that it has any significant financial impact.

Similarly, assets belonging to Putin and his supporters will have been well hidden before this kicked off.

I agree though, the one positive light is the protests and people putting their lives on the line to come out against the invasion.

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