Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces • Hacker News Board

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#951

Post by bombcar » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 3:17 PM UTC

slaw wrote: post #715

RC_ITR wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tibet was under control of the Qing Dynasty (i.e. China) until its end in 1912. From 1912-1950, Tibet (due to its remoteness) acted as an de facto independent region, despite Western legal precedent stating it was still under the control of Beijing. When attempting to get de jure independence from China in 1951, China asserted control over the region. So sort of, but not really.

So if you occupy country for long enough it’s ok to invade it when it tries to get independent?

Nobody likes to admit it, but yeah. It all boils down to might makes right; if you revolt or otherwise cause a ruckus and win then it becomes the right path of history - see: USA, etc.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#952

Post by jandrese » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 3:24 PM UTC

maccolgan wrote: post #527

jandrese wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where diplomacy should shine. It's clear that Russia has been hardening against western sanctions for years now, and CIPS is a big piece of that. If NATO can convince China to also shut them out of CIPS at the same time we turn off SWIFT the Russian Oligarchs will start applying pressure to Putin.

Why would China shut off Russia when it also faces the same adversaries from across the ocean? This is their moment prove CIPS.

You need to finish that sentence: "...prove CIPS enables imperialist expansion."

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#953

Post by gpm » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 3:45 PM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #948

gpm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're overestimating the speed of the attack. Even if the Ukrainians put up no resistance (and they have been putting up resistance) - tanks just don't move that fast/ukraine is a big place. See the dotted lines in this map - that's a rough estimate of how far the Russians have made it in a day. Even if they continue at the same pace overnight (unlikely), and the next day, and the next night, there's still a lot of…

Troops entered kyiv, some 19 hours after you made your statement.

My statement was not about how long it will take them to take Kyiv, but rather Ukraine. I had actually thought they would reach Kyiv before now.

I still believe my claim. Unless Russia miraculously takes the rest of the country in a few hours it will come true.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#954

Post by Chris2048 » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 3:58 PM UTC

jltsiren wrote: post #523

trashtester wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think MAD is only half the equation. Even if Putin didn't possess a single nuke, (EDIT:) Nato might very well have stood by watching today, as the conventional force deployed by Putin is pretty significant in itself. Similarly, had NATO deployed 500k soldiers fully armed with modern weaponry in Poland, Lithuania and Rumania as Putin was building up his forces, and added a warning that Ukraine would be granted insta…

European countries have not neglected anything. The current state of things is by design. Europe used to be full of empires waging destructive wars all over the world. After two world wars, people had had enough. The predecessors of the EU were created to tame the former empires. To make them mutually dependent and act like ordinary countries. It worked, and Western Europe has enjoyed a lifetime of peace, which is un…

> If you tell us that it's ok to start acting like empires

Ignoring the context of sending troops into war is a "shitty" move, as is characterising this kind of behaviour as being of "European people" - there have been lots of non-European empires, and colonial powers where administrated by European monarchs, not European democracies (i.e. the people).

Fighting an invading empire is not building one. These semantic games are a slippery-slope argument - structures such as NATO are pretty explicit means (in theory at least) to defending against aggression without endorsing aggression.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#955

Post by RC_ITR » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 4:02 PM UTC

slaw wrote: post #711

RC_ITR wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's such a straightforward narrative, but then why has no major power ever been able to annex and occupy an unwilling nation before? Everywhere Russia has taken to date was already a separatist region, but I'm really racking my brain to think of times when a country 'just simply annexed' another area by force since the fall of the Raj.

Turkey conquered part of Cyprus in 1974 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus

Similar to an earlier comment I made, if Norther Cyprus had more than 350k people in it, the world would probably care more.

So I agree you’re right, but I also hope you agree that Ukraine is very different.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#956

Post by RC_ITR » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

slaw wrote: post #715

RC_ITR wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tibet was under control of the Qing Dynasty (i.e. China) until its end in 1912. From 1912-1950, Tibet (due to its remoteness) acted as an de facto independent region, despite Western legal precedent stating it was still under the control of Beijing. When attempting to get de jure independence from China in 1951, China asserted control over the region. So sort of, but not really.

So if you occupy country for long enough it’s ok to invade it when it tries to get independent?

You’re literally describing the US civil war.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#957

Post by anamax » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 4:14 PM UTC

hutrdvnj wrote: post #852

anamax wrote: post #775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think that the US will nuke Russia to protect Poland or Germany?

The US has thousands of US soldiers in EU NATO states, do you think US will just sit there and talk about financial sanctions while Putin kills US troops in Europe? By the way Germany also has nukes, not their own ones, but they are not just there for fun.

While there are nukes in Germany, they're not Germany's nukes unless Germany can determine when/where said nukes are used. (The ability to stop the US from using them is not enough.)

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#958

Post by deutschewelle » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 4:27 PM UTC

berkes wrote: post #836

deutschewelle wrote: post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Strange strategy. To take a country, essentially swapping one border of a poorly functioning state with six new borders. Borders with countries that are EU members, NATO members and in most cases much stronger. Why exchange one weak border with six much stronger ones?

its tough to have discussion on this topic because HN users were triggered and flagging all of my comments without allowing me to explain through logic and call for calm.

its outright censorship, which to me is the biggest irony of it all. An open society is no more privy to censorship than closed ones, the only difference is that you all pat yourself on the back for being 'right' or whatever it is you are being fed by the media and your political nest

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#959

Post by Thaxll » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 4:36 PM UTC

netsharc wrote: post #122

Thaxll wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin would have never invaded a NATO country.

Feels like until 5AM local this morning we all thought he'd never do a full invasion of Ukraine either... But in general I'd agree with you. On the other hand, who and literally what army would stop them?

NATO is much more powerful than Russia, furthermore NATO has nuclear capabilities, you just don't invade a country that has nukes.

There is not a single chance that Russia would have touch a NATO country, it's a war they could not win.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#960

Post by kobalsky » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 4:44 PM UTC

ed wrote: post #720

beloch wrote: post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is not a NATO member, but Poland is. If Russia attacks a member of NATO then all members of NATO are obligated to join in defence militarily . Russia can attack non-NATO countries and intimidate NATO into doing nothing, but to attack a NATO member would automatically bring the whole alliance into the war. The whole point of alliances like NATO is to prevent countries from being picked off by a bully the way U…

> 2. Develop nuclear weapons. Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine had nuclear weapons but gave them up because Russia agreed not to invade them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur...

and the US signed agreeing to provide assistance if they got attacked or threatened with nuclear weapons.

you may say that the threats of nuclear aggression were thinly veiled but not technically apply because the word nuclear has not been used. but if you applied an honest interpretation of what is happening you would say that point 4 does apply.

> 4. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".

nobody wants a nuclear war so it's better if the US stays out of it at this point, but just I'm pointing out that got screwed by more than one signer on that treaty.