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On the removal of Come Back Alive

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Re: On the removal of Come Back Alive

#341

Post by PaulHoule »

hef19898 wrote: post #199
keymone wrote: post #123

Quoted post unavailable.

With the risk of getting a dead comment, I can't help but ask one question: Imagine groups in countries getting uninvited visits from NATO or US forces, pick the country of choice from Vietnam to Afghanistan, would have used Patreon for fundraising. Wpuld the perception, after they get kicked of patreon, be "fuck patreon" or "good that patreon isn't financing terrorists"? Ukraine needs all the help they can get. And…

More generally there are conflicts such as that in Northern Ireland where from my point of view there is not a wrong or a right side but if people were fundraising for either the IRA or Unionist fighters that would be a bad thing.

I remember a controversy on a now-defunct crowdfounding platform that was intended to support open source software where one of the top recipients was someone who was raising money for a divorce lawsuit.

On one hand I can understand that somebody might not do that but from working at a mediation center that did a lot of parenting plans I learned to be very skeptical of what anybody says about a divorce. That is, frequently both partners are going to tell a story that is full of half-truths. People in a situation like that can go to a mediation and often make decisions they are happy with in the long term, but if you try to put together a consistent story of what happened you usually can't. Some people might be inclined to believe the person they are closer to, or some people might tend to sympathize with a man or with a women (though it might be two of the same these days), but I learned not to even try to make a model of "what happened" because its inevitably going to be distorted.

Some people might see a relationship between the personal and political and believe they are supporting some wider cause by crowdfunding a divorce but I don't feel entirely comfortable with people crowdfunding personal antagonisms any more than I am with people crowdfunding armed conflicts.

Re: On the removal of Come Back Alive

#342

Post by tonyedgecombe »

tgv wrote: post #23
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all know the final outcome of this. In the face of the overwhelming force Ukraine faces it seems to me any help we provide is just going to prolong the agony.

That's not a given. And dragging out the fight gives other forces a chance, too.

What other forces? The West isn't going to intervene directly.

Re: On the removal of Come Back Alive

#343

Post by dragonwriter »

sofixa wrote: post #300
ttybird2 wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, there are war crimes being commited in this invasion?

The invasion is itself a war crime ( crimes against peace), and the indiscriminate bombing of civilian buildings as can be seen from numerous videos from Donetsk, Kyiv, Lviv, Mariupol, etc. are also war crimes.

> The invasion is itself a war crime ( crimes against peace)

Technically, “war crimes”, “crimes against peace” and “crimes against humanity” are distinct categories (though the second two are often distinguished only by whether or not they occur in the context of a war; e.g., genocide is either a war crime or a crime against humanity, depending on context).

Aggression is a crime against peace, not a war crime.

> the indiscriminate bombing of civilian buildings as can be seen from numerous videos

Those would be war crimes, though videos of the impacts are generally only suggestive evidence of indiscriminate (or, worse, intentional) targeting.

Re: On the removal of Come Back Alive

#344

Post by salawat »

Jolter wrote: post #163
user-the-name wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that the former is pointless frivolity, and the latter is, in this case, defending against a literal invasion.

Exactly. My point is that they are materially different. A person may disagree with Patreon’s policy, but you have to agree that it is not in fact hypocritical (or “schizophrenic”) to allow funding to one but not the other.

And you, my dear pister, are waffling on the freedom to self-organize, and falling into the Kissinger trap.

Soft power; Sickening thing. Once you have it you're responsible for everything. In this case, the U.S. trying to once again get entangled in another spat.

Once you start binning which transactions are really appropriate to happen, you're de-facto making policy.

Re: On the removal of Come Back Alive

#345

Post by tonyedgecombe »

modo_mario wrote: post #198
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think Ukraine has a reasonable chance of resisting this invasion? It doesn't look like it to me. So what are you offering other than prolonging the agony?

Did Ireland ever have a reasonable chance of resisting British invasion? Did Afghanistan ever have a reasonable chance of resisting Soviet/US invasion? Did Vietnam ever have a reasonable chance of resisting US/Chinese invasion?

Northern Ireland has never looked so close to reunification and that is largely because the republicans renounced their violence.

Re: On the removal of Come Back Alive

#346

Post by chrisco255 »

badRNG wrote: post #290
KptMarchewa wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The US, the most well-funded army in the world for the past generation, hasn't won a war since the end of WW2. That depends on the definition of winning. In many cases, US military won everything militarily, but lost politically.

I mean, is Iraq even a loss politically? The US thoroughly rolled the Iraqi military, killed over 1 million Iraqis, overthrew their government, and installed a new government in Iraq that still exists today. To say this is a "loss" leaves us at a place where the term has no meaning.

Yes, because it required 20 years of active occupation, numerous offensives, and trillions of dollars and it's unlikely that the result will last.

While we fucked around in the middle east, Russia regained strength and China emerged as a peer world power. Does anyone want to bet that Iraq or Afghanistan will remain our loyal ally in this new multipolar world?

We're now $30T in debt with a 125% debt-to-GDP ratio. All of our allies are completely emasculated by 70+ years of U.S. hegemony. And no one has an appetite for war on ideological grounds when we lied about all the past wars and protestors are getting trampled by horses and un-personed from the financial system without due process in a 'liberal' western democracy.

Strategically speaking, you can win a battle but lose the war. It was an absolute loss from that perspective.

Re: On the removal of Come Back Alive

#347

Post by tonyedgecombe »

jacquesm wrote: post #137
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think Ukraine has a reasonable chance of resisting this invasion? It doesn't look like it to me. So what are you offering other than prolonging the agony?

Ah the 'lets roll over for the enemy' group. Yes, we had those here in NL as well when WWII broke out. Let's just say that when the invaders eventually left - as they always do - that group didn't fare particularly well. It's called cowardice, if coupled with actions that benefit the enemy it's called collaboration and is usually dealt with for what it is: treason. I have no dog in this particular race other than tha…

No post body was provided.

Re: On the removal of Come Back Alive

#348

Post by arpanet86 »

badRNG wrote: post #290
KptMarchewa wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The US, the most well-funded army in the world for the past generation, hasn't won a war since the end of WW2. That depends on the definition of winning. In many cases, US military won everything militarily, but lost politically.

I mean, is Iraq even a loss politically? The US thoroughly rolled the Iraqi military, killed over 1 million Iraqis, overthrew their government, and installed a new government in Iraq that still exists today. To say this is a "loss" leaves us at a place where the term has no meaning.

Killing over 1 million Iraqis, most of them civilians, counts as a "win"?

The war massively damaged the US government's credibility, both domestically and internationally, cost the US ~$2T, and did little to stabilize the region; one might be able to argue that it destabilized it, in fact. The US won a military victory in Iraq, but emerged worse off on the whole as a result.

Re: On the removal of Come Back Alive

#349

Post by Jolter »

salawat wrote: post #344
Jolter wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. My point is that they are materially different. A person may disagree with Patreon’s policy, but you have to agree that it is not in fact hypocritical (or “schizophrenic”) to allow funding to one but not the other.

And you, my dear pister, are waffling on the freedom to self-organize, and falling into the Kissinger trap. Soft power; Sickening thing. Once you have it you're responsible for everything. In this case, the U.S. trying to once again get entangled in another spat. Once you start binning which transactions are really appropriate to happen, you're de-facto making policy.

Now you’re just stringing random words together. What is the “Kissinger trap”?

The topic was the freedom of an American corporation to not finance warfare. There is no moral or legal imperative for them to permit their users to finance a foreign country’s military, whether that country is an ally or adversary.

Re: On the removal of Come Back Alive

#350

Post by lawn »

jacquesm wrote: post #94
lawn wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These black and white policies that discard nuance always run into these problems. Similar to how the "zero violence policies" in schools means they punish the bullied because they're defending themselves.

No, they are hypocrites because there is plenty of violence related stuff funded through Patreon.

If you're been bullied then the school management behaves like hypocrites too.
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