Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces • Hacker News Board

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#881

Post by AussieWog93 » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 10:03 AM UTC

afterburner wrote: post #759

beloch wrote: post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is not a NATO member, but Poland is. If Russia attacks a member of NATO then all members of NATO are obligated to join in defence militarily . Russia can attack non-NATO countries and intimidate NATO into doing nothing, but to attack a NATO member would automatically bring the whole alliance into the war. The whole point of alliances like NATO is to prevent countries from being picked off by a bully the way U…

> It's worth noting that Taiwan is in a similar situation with respect to China. They are being threatened with invasion, but have no formal military alliances with nuclear powers. Judging from the U.S.'s reaction to the invasion of Ukraine, the U.S. would do little more than apply sanctions if China invaded Taiwan. Not unless the U.S. has special feelings for Taiwan that it does not have for Ukraine at any rate. Thi…

>Not to mention a Chinese invasion of Taiwan would be almost trivially easy for the US to stop. It's an island, and the US has naval and air supremacy.

This was maybe true in 1996, but less so today (at least from what I've heard).

China is rapidly approaching naval parity with the US, and they have enough land-based anti-ship missiles to deny most surface vessels access to the Taiwan straight.

That's not even considering the logistical aspects of it all. Taiwan is 150km from the coast of China and 10,000km away from the coast of the US...

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#882

Post by friedturkey » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 10:05 AM UTC

rasz wrote: post #821

beloch wrote: post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is not a NATO member, but Poland is. If Russia attacks a member of NATO then all members of NATO are obligated to join in defence militarily . Russia can attack non-NATO countries and intimidate NATO into doing nothing, but to attack a NATO member would automatically bring the whole alliance into the war. The whole point of alliances like NATO is to prevent countries from being picked off by a bully the way U…

>Ukraine is not a NATO member, but Poland is. If Russia attacks a member of NATO then all members of NATO are obligated to join in defence militarily. We lived once thru this in 1939. NO one will join in to defend Poland. Germany might even make another deal with Russia to "save EU".

I think times have changed quite a bit. Poland was always thrown to the dogs before, but now it's a pretty decently respected country. It also has economic value to the EU as a whole.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#883

Post by trashtester » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 10:08 AM UTC

pasabagi wrote: post #789

trashtester wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I suppose I need to say that I'm European, living in a country with a very tiny military force. I understand why Germany, in particular, does not want to be a strong military power anymore. Britain and France seem less reluctant, probably taking some pride from standing up to Hitler in 1939, and this contributing to them seeing their armed forces primarily as defensive instruments. (Disregarding their l…

I guess the tricky thing about a military, as german history shows, is its cultural impact. Would the Nazi regime have been possible without Hindenburg? Would Hitler have become prominent without Ludendorf? Ludendorf and Hindenburg essentially created the stab-in-the-back idea. The outsize respect given to military figures, the allure of uniforms, the outsize rights and trust given to ex-soldiers - all these things m…

I suppose there were plenty of cultural ties between the Imperial German Army and the rise of Hitler. But for Germany to still not possess a credible defence force due to those ties is hard to justify, especially if the US no longer can be relied upon.

Personally, I don't care much whether there is a pan-EU force or national militaries (tied together by both the EU and Nato) that fills this role, but I see it is a problem if Europe lacks the strength to properly defend countries such as the Ukraine. If Putin is, through military aggression, able to eventually gain full control of the Ukrain, I expect other "leaders" with similar dispositions will try similar actions in the future.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#884

Post by picsao » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 10:08 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #866

marttt wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Former journalist from Estonia here. Our media republished a 1994 speech given by late president of Estonia Lennart Meri at a banquet in Hamburg, Germany. Vladimir Putin, a then internationally unknown politician from St Petersburg, was also among the listeners -- and demonstratively walked out of the room during Meri's speech, as reported by Deutsche Welle [1]. Quoting DW: "On February 25, 1994, Putin was also in at…

To be fair Estonia's treatment of its Russian community fed right into Putin's propaganda machine, when you still have this: "7.3% are "persons with undetermined citizenship"" (to quote wikipedia [1]) ~30 years after the break-up of the USSR then you know something was not done right on Estonia's part when it came to really integrating the Russian community. The same partially goes for the condition of the Russian co…

No post body was provided.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#885

Post by trashtester » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 10:14 AM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #782

trashtester wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I suppose I need to say that I'm European, living in a country with a very tiny military force. I understand why Germany, in particular, does not want to be a strong military power anymore. Britain and France seem less reluctant, probably taking some pride from standing up to Hitler in 1939, and this contributing to them seeing their armed forces primarily as defensive instruments. (Disregarding their l…

Well, the German army was significantly downsized since the end of the Cold War and Reunification. Once Germany had thousands of modern tanks for example. Now we are down to fraction of that. We called it the Peace Dividend, not sure if it actually saved any money so. The reason why the German Army was that big was the USSR and Warsaw pact. They were supposed to check any Soviet advance long enough, preferably before…

During the cold war, the Soviet Union was the only threat. Present day Russia is merely the second most dangerous threat facing the free world. China is becoming a much more potent economic as well as military power.

This means that this time, Europe need to realize they have to be able to defend against an increasingly aggressive Russia _without_ significant US support, and may even have to have strength to spare to aid vs China. In other words, countries like Germany need to have military strength at least at the level they had during the cold war to do their part in providing safety and stability to Europe.

If this doesn't happen, I think Germany must expect that more and more countries in the area develops their own nukes, as that is the only alternative way to deter a power like Russia. How will Germany feel if Poland, Hungary, Rumania, Greece and Turkey suddenly all had their own nukes?

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#886

Post by trymas » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 10:16 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #866

marttt wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Former journalist from Estonia here. Our media republished a 1994 speech given by late president of Estonia Lennart Meri at a banquet in Hamburg, Germany. Vladimir Putin, a then internationally unknown politician from St Petersburg, was also among the listeners -- and demonstratively walked out of the room during Meri's speech, as reported by Deutsche Welle [1]. Quoting DW: "On February 25, 1994, Putin was also in at…

To be fair Estonia's treatment of its Russian community fed right into Putin's propaganda machine, when you still have this: "7.3% are "persons with undetermined citizenship"" (to quote wikipedia [1]) ~30 years after the break-up of the USSR then you know something was not done right on Estonia's part when it came to really integrating the Russian community. The same partially goes for the condition of the Russian co…

AFAIK like in Latvia - these people (mostly russians) had (and still have) 3 choices: go back to russia, apply for citizenship or be left as "non-citizen".

If after ~30 years after break-up of USSR you have not gone back to russia (because quality of life in Estonia or Latvia is probably better), or have not learned the language or do not want to pledge loyalty to the country - then such person is a problem to itself. My social anecdotal bubble tells me that most of such people are very pro-soviet-union, but somehow idea of moving back to "mother russia" scares them.

Also in most post-soviet states russian communities can live all their lives without learning local language, i.e. there are native-russian kindergartens, schools, even university programs, russian entertainment and they can expect and be able to communicate almost everywhere in russian. So where's the bad treatment?

Putin's propaganda machine will make shit up on the spot - treatment of russian speaking communities is one of them. Maybe you also believe that there's fascist junta in Ukraine or Estonia? russian troll industry are masters of fake news - that will flood everything with multiple bullshit statements.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#887

Post by trashtester » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 10:19 AM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #846

trashtester wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I suppose I need to say that I'm European, living in a country with a very tiny military force. I understand why Germany, in particular, does not want to be a strong military power anymore. Britain and France seem less reluctant, probably taking some pride from standing up to Hitler in 1939, and this contributing to them seeing their armed forces primarily as defensive instruments. (Disregarding their l…

It's not necessarily a matter of Germany not wanting to have a larger military. They are still bound by an international treaty that limits their military might.

First of all, German military capacity can be at least doubled, maybe tripled within that treaty, and second, if other nato countries don't object, they can probably claim that treaty null and void after Russia violates Ukrainian independence.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#888

Post by hutzlibu » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 10:20 AM UTC

pySSK wrote: post #879

KronisLV wrote: post #869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would also like to know this, because Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect. I mean, i can understand some controversy around the actions of Turkey because of a variety of reasons, but Germany?

> Would also like to know this, because Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect. Two reasons: 1. Germany depends on Russia for gas, and the two countries have business and economic ties 2. Germany and France are the main 'providers' in the EU, kinda like California, Texas, New York in the US. They have to pay more if they admit a big poor country like Ukrain…

"Germany and France are the main 'providers' in the EU, kinda like California, Texas, New York in the US. They have to pay more if they admit a big poor country like Ukraine"

It was about NATO, not EU membership.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#889

Post by ClumsyPilot » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 10:23 AM UTC

irthomasthomas wrote: post #823

pmontra wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All ICBMs are supersonic and hypersonic too. What super-nuclear ICBMs are? Anyway, a retaliation strike from the USA would wipe out enough of Russia to end the war in a draw, if we can say so. They only have to remind Putin the common wisdom from all those years of cold war, if any of us attacks we are all toast.

I said they believe, not that I believe it. But then Russia is absolutely massive. They could have hundreds of thousands people leaving deep under ground, ready to emerge and rule earth when the dust clears. Also, wasn't there some revelation, after the cold war ended, that Russia had known American nuclear codes or positions all along? That would certainly give them some advantage.

> They could have hundreds of thousands people leaving deep under ground, ready to emerge and rule earth when the dust clears.

That's not 'victory' by anyone's definition. Also there are plenty of areas noone is targeting - remote Pacific islands, rural Australia, etc. Theybare going to be much better than a bunker.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#890

Post by hutzlibu » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 10:24 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #871

KronisLV wrote: post #869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would also like to know this, because Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect. I mean, i can understand some controversy around the actions of Turkey because of a variety of reasons, but Germany?

> Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect. What used to be East Germany then is Germany now. It's not exactly a crazy development.

Yes, but east germany was not willingly on the eastern block (nor was poland, czech, ...)

But there are indeed some nostalgics here, who like Putin and the eastern empire.