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Soybean oil affects hypothalamus, causes genetic changes in mice: study (2020)

universityofcalifornia.edu

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Re: Soybean oil affects hypothalamus, causes genetic changes in mice: study (2020)

#381

Post by intull »

atlantas wrote: post #25

My understanding is that most of the oils we use are unhealthy. They are highly processed and inflammatory. The good oils are avocado oil, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Is this correct?

Mostly, yes, unfortunately. Avocado oil is also quite highly processed but is the lesser among the evils. Extra virgin olive oil and unprocessed coconut oil are good. I've come to understand that reducing fat intake via cooking oils but increasing it via healthier raw/unprocessed fats are better (olive oil, dietary fats from fish, eggs, etc).

Also note that, oils can oxidize fairly easily. I still don't know how to procure oils from supermarkets that I'm sure are not already oxidized. Then comes the matter of storing it in ways to prevent oils from oxidizing.

Re: Soybean oil affects hypothalamus, causes genetic changes in mice: study (2020)

#382

Post by 30367286 »

imwillofficial wrote: post #114

This is wild, but also would explain a lot of the obesity issues in the west.

We already have explanations for the obesity issues in the west. It's tempting to look for "the one thing," but the story is far more interesting than that:

https://www.publichealth.org/public-awareness/obesity/

Re: Soybean oil affects hypothalamus, causes genetic changes in mice: study (2020)

#383

Post by HellsMaddy »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #133

I used to eat sardines every day trying to get the health benefits of fatty fish. They were packed in soybean oil. I drank the oil too. With time I began to have bizarre mental issues that I finally tracked down to the sardines. Sardines packed in olive oil don’t cause this issue. That’s my anecdata to share.

I bought some expensive “wild Norwegian cod liver oil” from Whole Foods recently. Didn’t look closely enough at the ingredients. Turns out the carrier oil is soybean oil.

Re: Soybean oil affects hypothalamus, causes genetic changes in mice: study (2020)

#384

Post by chefandy »

SnowProblem wrote: post #231
loopdoend wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Best to buy ones packed in water. No idea as to the quality of the oil used.

Yep, you can always add oil yourself if you like the taste. I also recommend buying the ones that have the skin and bones, because there's a lot of nutrition there. The bones are barely noticeable. This was the brand I went with: https://www.amazon.com/Crown-Prince-Sardines-Water-4-25-Ounc...

The flavor of the oil isn't what makes oil-packed fish taste better— it's just a better storage medium for fish. Oil doesn't wash fish of its delicate water soluble flavors, oil deeply penetrates the flesh and to keep it from getting as tough, and it won't dilute additional flavorings like smoke or aromatics.

Getting oil-packed fish without soybean oil isn't difficult but it is obviously more expensive. I'd worry as much or more about pharmaceutical waste and other pollutants in cheap, mass-produced fish, too. Fortunately, sardines don't have a ton of mercury.

There's nothing remotely wrong with Crown Prince sardines, but if you're interested in a comparison, something like this, while twice as much per oz (.69us vs .33us) should clearly illustrate the differences.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07LB7Q62R/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_BV...

Re: Soybean oil affects hypothalamus, causes genetic changes in mice: study (2020)

#385

Post by robwwilliams »

asdff wrote: post #321
robwwilliams wrote: post #256

Do not take this work seriously unless you are a male inbred mouse of the C57BL/6N persuasion. This is a classic N=1 study of one sex and one genome of mouse. As such this work is of almost no know relevance to other strains of mice, let alone to humanity. If you want an example of how mice dietary studies should be done then look to the National Institute on Aging and its Interventions Testing Program. They use both…

We use model systems because they are often in fact representative of the systems we are actually concerned about but cannot reliably measure like we could in a lab environment with an established model system. This does not mean the work is meritless.

It is only meritorious as a pilot study to do the work properly. Would you consider an n of 1 study of a human a basis for commenting on dietary interventions? i hope not.

Re: Soybean oil affects hypothalamus, causes genetic changes in mice: study (2020)

#386

Post by jamiek88 »

loudtieblahblah wrote: post #348
collegeburner wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suggestions on how I can get enough complete protein in such a diet? I am open to reducing meat for health if this is a factor but eat about 150 grams complete protein every day and this is hard to replace from vegetarian. The few vegetarian dishes I see with significant protein are often not nearly as good as yogurt, meat, eggs or just stuff with whey protein in it. I can't see much with comparable protein to calori…

There's 2 ways to look at protein. There's a life-span way and a health-span way. Do you want to live longer? or do you want to feel and potentially look better? When it comes to protein, these two things seem to be at odds with one another. High protein is correlated with shorter lifespans. - https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/protein... - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC-ej7HbPWg You'll notice t…

This is the most useful post I’ve read on here for ages! Thanks!

I could have written parts of it myself as I’m at a similar age with a similar journey and also adhd.

I’m going to think very carefully about what I’ve read here. Thanks again.

Re: Soybean oil affects hypothalamus, causes genetic changes in mice: study (2020)

#387

Post by msrenee »

robwwilliams wrote: post #256

Do not take this work seriously unless you are a male inbred mouse of the C57BL/6N persuasion. This is a classic N=1 study of one sex and one genome of mouse. As such this work is of almost no know relevance to other strains of mice, let alone to humanity. If you want an example of how mice dietary studies should be done then look to the National Institute on Aging and its Interventions Testing Program. They use both…

The article is terrible and at least the 2015 study makes bigger claims than they really ought to considering the scope and sample size.

>Fructose enhances liver/body weight ratio and kidney weight; soybean oil is protective in spleen and kidney.

From the caption on fig 2.

>To our surprise, we found that at 20 weeks the F-HFD did not cause diabetes (fasting blood glucose level > 200 mg/dL) whereas the SO-HFD did (Fig 4A).

This is in the results section as well under what I hope is just the heading and not an actual conclusion they drew: "Soybean oil induces diabetes, glucose intolerance and insulin resistance (IR)"

That's enough to give me some serious pause. If anyone has an explanation for why they felt comfortable claiming such certainty from the trial, I'd love to be wrong about this. It looks like you could just as easily claim that coconut oil prevents these things from the data provided.

I also am curious where the fructose + soybean oil + high fat diet group went when they started doing genetic analysis. They just disappear. Maybe I missed it, but it doesn't seem to be addressed in materials and methods or in the conclusions.

Re: Soybean oil affects hypothalamus, causes genetic changes in mice: study (2020)

#388

Post by robwwilliams »

simonsarris wrote: post #4

> The same UC Riverside research team found in 2015 that soybean oil induces obesity, diabetes, insulin resistance, and fatty liver in mice. Then in a 2017 study, the same group learned that if soybean oil is engineered to be low in linoleic acid, it induces less obesity and insulin resistance. > “The hypothalamus regulates body weight via your metabolism, maintains body temperature, is critical for reproduction and…

Happy to see it in HN, if only as a canonical example of the current “rage” of reductionist n-of-1 science funded by you and others through NIH and many other research funders. This is the very opposite of robust and translatable research. It is science to “get a paper out” with a snappy press release.

Would you trust n-of-1 clinical trial? One monozygotic twin gets diet X, the other is control. A study of C57BL/6N mice, no matter how many are used is an n-of-1 study. And these mice all completely inbred. At least the human MZ twins are not inbred!

There is just no excuse for style of reductionist science. Gives mouse models a terrible, but perhaps deservedly bad reputation for translational ir-relevance.

Yet you see these n-of-1 studies in many of the top tier journals. The NIH BRAIN initiative mouse studies make the same error. Do we really want just ONE connectome? How do we compute our way to causal models with n-of-1?

Re: Soybean oil affects hypothalamus, causes genetic changes in mice: study (2020)

#389

Post by maxerickson »

simonsarris wrote: post #4

> The same UC Riverside research team found in 2015 that soybean oil induces obesity, diabetes, insulin resistance, and fatty liver in mice. Then in a 2017 study, the same group learned that if soybean oil is engineered to be low in linoleic acid, it induces less obesity and insulin resistance. > “The hypothalamus regulates body weight via your metabolism, maintains body temperature, is critical for reproduction and…

What body temperature are all these torpid people maintaining then?

Re: Soybean oil affects hypothalamus, causes genetic changes in mice: study (2020)

#390

Post by robwwilliams »

robwwilliams wrote: post #388
simonsarris wrote: post #4

> The same UC Riverside research team found in 2015 that soybean oil induces obesity, diabetes, insulin resistance, and fatty liver in mice. Then in a 2017 study, the same group learned that if soybean oil is engineered to be low in linoleic acid, it induces less obesity and insulin resistance. > “The hypothalamus regulates body weight via your metabolism, maintains body temperature, is critical for reproduction and…

Happy to see it in HN, if only as a canonical example of the current “rage” of reductionist n-of-1 science funded by you and others through NIH and many other research funders. This is the very opposite of robust and translatable research. It is science to “get a paper out” with a snappy press release. Would you trust n-of-1 clinical trial? One monozygotic twin gets diet X, the other is control. A study of C57BL/6N m…

And I should add — I do these kinds of studies, and have since 1996. I love using mouse genetic models. They can be great.

I always try to study many genomes of mice and whenever possible both sexes.

Does it make it harder and more expensive? You bet. But the data are much more robust and translationally relevant.

See almost any paper by RW Williams at UTHSC.

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