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Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

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Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#371

Post by modo_mario »

arez wrote: post #355
xroche wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables. You can't exit from the oil economy with renewable such as wind or solar due to their non-predictability. If you want to stop importing Russian gaz, you need nuclear energy.

so let's build some nuclear power plants, they should be done in 20yrs is that fast enough?

A serious stretch. Nevertheless the argument that they're too slow to build has been popping up for 20 years now.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#372

Post by hamsamrma »

moonchrome wrote: post #359
afroboy wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you need nuclear energy. Don't forget they are easy targets when war get declared.

I'm guessing if anyone is going to start nuclear war then we're going back to stone age with or without nuclear power plants.

Thou there's a difference between "Nuclear War" and "some rebels shot a nuclear power plant and it disintegrated"

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#373

Post by deepsun »

neuronic wrote: post #253

We stopped Nord Stream 2 in Germany, finally. The former GDR state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern was obviously hoping for much needed jobs and taxes, but we stopped it now. It was always wrong to accept this pipeline, it was purely political. Now I also hope the US will stop all oil imports from Russia as well if not already done so. We need to cut off Russia from every single international penny and influence. In German…

Nord Stream 2 doesn't matter for Russia. There are several alternative options (e.g. Nord Stream 1). The main reason Russians built it is to spend government money on top officials development companies. If Europe closes NS2, it's even better, let's build it to New Zealand.

The whole Nord Stream 2 thing is pathetic. Ex-German chancellor Shroeder is on its board of directors. And Germany kinda plays on Russian side here a little, doing nothing but supportive words. If they agree with Russia to split Poland again, I wouldn't be surprised.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#374

Post by gpderetta »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #313
MobiusHorizons wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a motivation that makes sense, but what alternative will Russia have? Do you think Russia is banking on Europe eventually lifting sanctions and purchasing gas again?

It's not a matter of "again". Gas purchases are not on the table as far as sanctions go. It's the other way around. The EU is afraid that if they impose serious sanctions Russia will cut off the gas supply. This will hurt the EU far more than it hurts Russia in the short term.

Doesn't most of european gas run through Ukraine? Ukraine could use it as leverage .

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#375

Post by koide »

eej71 wrote: post #266
jl6 wrote: post #121

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/rus Russia’s exports are >50% oil and gas products. The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables.

Many countries could also source fossil fuels from friendly allies. But those allies would have to be interested in extracting it from their own sources. From my stand point, and this will be very unpopular here, the push to rely on the unreliables (a better name for the renewables) has been toxic and is a destabilizing force in the world.

Did you know that the fossil energy sources are also intermittent? No energy plant is ever working 24x7x365. Stop with the fud already. There are real concerns with solar and wind that could be ameliorated with small scale storage, nuclear, geothermal and hydro. But to call them toxic and destabilizing is patently untrue, the destabilizing factor is not renewable energy.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#376

Post by petre »

afroboy wrote: post #340
xroche wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables. You can't exit from the oil economy with renewable such as wind or solar due to their non-predictability. If you want to stop importing Russian gaz, you need nuclear energy.

> you need nuclear energy. Don't forget they are easy targets when war get declared.

A gas pipeline is also an easy target unless it's under the sea like North Stream.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#377

Post by Paradigma11 »

cleancoder0 wrote: post #230
jl6 wrote: post #121

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/rus Russia’s exports are >50% oil and gas products. The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables.

This is unfortunately highly unlikely. A lot of EU politics depends on the pockets of rich Russian oil firms. Just look at Austria, very rich but obviously Russian run EU country. (latest prime minister got fired by Russians even though Russia cyberarmy helped him win the elections. They decided he was no longer as compliant, so they leaked data many years after elections, Russian scandals several years before that e…

Kurz got booted because of run of the mill power politics and because his clique was arrogant, careless, not very effective and made more than enough enemies. No outside influence needed. But its funny, russian propagandist standpoint is that he got ousted because he stood up to the EU: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAhtC20nqjk

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#378

Post by 988747 »

watwut wrote: post #283
icelancer wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin already believes he shares a border with NATO. Ukraine is not independent in his mind. Foundations of Geopolitics explains in depth what modern Russian foreign policy is aiming for.

That would be correct belief. Russia shares border with Estonia and Latvia. If he manage to occupy whole of Ukraine, he will share border with Poland, Slovakia and Romania too.

Russia already has border with Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad_Oblast

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#379

Post by zuzun »

modo_mario wrote: post #371
arez wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so let's build some nuclear power plants, they should be done in 20yrs is that fast enough?

A serious stretch. Nevertheless the argument that they're too slow to build has been popping up for 20 years now.

Unlike nuclear power plants.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#380

Post by jpgvm »

CodeArtisan wrote: post #257
gambiting wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> NATO and especially USA should have responded by sending two thousands soldiers to Kiev And when those American soldiers are killed by Russian missiles, do you then declare full on war on Russia, and we basically all die? Because like....there is no other good option out of this you know. By placing American(or NATO) troops and assets in the harms way, you need to be prepared for what you are going to do if those…

I am not a native English speaker and may have badly expressed myself. I am not urging the "west" or "allieds" to intervene nor i am condemning them for not to. But if they were serious about stopping Putin, they would have sent troops weeks before the invasion. When Joseph Biden went everyday on television to warn that the invasion was imminent and that usa will not send troops but instead establish more economic sa…

He explained why they can't send troops.

They can send equipment because if equipment is lost it's no big deal.

If you send NATO troops and they are killed then all out war between NATO and Russia is inevitable and that could easily be world ending.

Essentially sending troops to Ukraine has a very poor risk/reward. If it works and Russia is discouraged from attacking then great, everyone goes home. If it doesn't work then it's WW3.

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