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Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

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Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#31

Post by watwut »

reitanqild wrote: post #21
darebak wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if Western-style democracies don't want to loose their freedoms they have to act. Can you clarify on this? How does recent Russian action threaten freedoms in Western style democracies?

Read modern history. Especially 1936 to 1940. If you are in a hurry you can start here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time

If you are referring to Germany 1936, it did not resembled modern western democracies at all. It was not established democracy at all prior. It was forced into democracy it never wanted after loosing war. Prior, it was heavily militarized some-constitutional monarchy. Their democracy was failing mess the whole time.

If you are referring to something else, be concrete.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#32

Post by int_19h »

darebak wrote: post #25
reitanqild wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read modern history. Especially 1936 to 1940. If you are in a hurry you can start here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time

I think I am well versed in European history, thank you for your snarky comment. There's no reason to believe some local conflict will undermine "democracies" all over Europe, notwithstanding the media that is always preying on people's fears.

All conflicts start as "local". What we know today as WW2 was originally reported as the German-Polish war, for example.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#33

Post by reitanqild »

darebak wrote: post #25
reitanqild wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read modern history. Especially 1936 to 1940. If you are in a hurry you can start here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time

I think I am well versed in European history, thank you for your snarky comment. There's no reason to believe some local conflict will undermine "democracies" all over Europe, notwithstanding the media that is always preying on people's fears.

Sorry I didn't realize that. There are actually a lot of people shouting loudly who never read history.

I thought the salami slicing pattern was obvious for everyone to see now.

Since it is not point is that to me and many others the situation looks very similar to what happened just before WWII.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#34

Post by Wiseacre »

watwut wrote: post #26
hef19898 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They consider their security to be threatened, and requested NATO to discuss it. Officially. Which is kind of a big deal. Article 5 can be invoked once, intentionally or by accident, e.g. a NATO plane is attacked over Ukraine. This whole thing is a mess. Despite history since the end of the cold war (which makes some of Russia's positions somewhat understandable, and the fact that NATO didn't do anything different in…

What makes Russia position understandable? What gives them right to occupy Ukraine?

Understandable does not mean justifiable.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#35

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #19
bremac wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's rather hyperbolic. Article 4 has been invoked six times since 2003 (including in response to the Crimean invasion.) None of those cases triggered World War III.

This is orders of magnitude different than those prior invocations.

[deleted]

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#36

Post by ckastner »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #2

https://valitsus.ee/en/news/estonian-government-requests-con... People are minimizing this, based on the word "consultation". Don't be fooled, this is grave news, even though it is not Article 5. Article 5 invocation under these circumstances have substantial risk of full scale thermonuclear exchange.

> substantial risk of full scale thermonuclear exchange.

This hasn't been true since the Cuban Missile Crisis.

A full scale nuclear exchange ends with the annihilation of both sides. [1]

To quote WarGames, "The only way to win is not to play".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#37

Post by reitanqild »

watwut wrote: post #31
reitanqild wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read modern history. Especially 1936 to 1940. If you are in a hurry you can start here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time

If you are referring to Germany 1936, it did not resembled modern western democracies at all. It was not established democracy at all prior. It was forced into democracy it never wanted after loosing war. Prior, it was heavily militarized some-constitutional monarchy. Their democracy was failing mess the whole time. If you are referring to something else, be concrete.

Thanks for pointing out.

I'm comparing Germanys "helpful" occupations of neighboring countries "to help the poor Germans there against abuse" inhabitants to Putin's attempt to occupy Ukraine "to protect all the poor Russians there against genocide."

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#38

Post by mhoad »

darebak wrote: post #25
reitanqild wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read modern history. Especially 1936 to 1940. If you are in a hurry you can start here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time

I think I am well versed in European history, thank you for your snarky comment. There's no reason to believe some local conflict will undermine "democracies" all over Europe, notwithstanding the media that is always preying on people's fears.

Your first and second sentence seem to be in conflict with one another.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#40

Post by selfhoster11 »

darebak wrote: post #28
baby wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

World wars start from something small. Not saying this is it, but there are all the reasons to be concerned about today’s events.

I don't think that any of the world wars started out of small things, can you clarify?

World War 1 started because a guy was assassinated, for one. The tension was there, but the assassination was what set everything into motion.
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