Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4 • Hacker News Board

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#21

Post by reitanqild » Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 7:20 AM UTC

darebak wrote: post #15

hef19898 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They consider their security to be threatened, and requested NATO to discuss it. Officially. Which is kind of a big deal. Article 5 can be invoked once, intentionally or by accident, e.g. a NATO plane is attacked over Ukraine. This whole thing is a mess. Despite history since the end of the cold war (which makes some of Russia's positions somewhat understandable, and the fact that NATO didn't do anything different in…

>if Western-style democracies don't want to loose their freedoms they have to act. Can you clarify on this? How does recent Russian action threaten freedoms in Western style democracies?

Read modern history.

Especially 1936 to 1940.

If you are in a hurry you can start here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#22

Post by baby » Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 7:21 AM UTC

bremac wrote: post #17

kragen wrote: post #13

Non-error-message link: https://birdsite.xanny.family/EstonianGovt/status/1496728085... Text, 57 minutes ago: "#Estonia unequivocally condemns #Russia's military attack on #Ukraine and we have decided to launch #NATO consultations under Article 4 of the North Atlantic Treaty with Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and other Allies." Crepuscular photo of some buildings and link to https://valitsus.ee/en/news/estonian-governmen…

That's rather hyperbolic. Article 4 has been invoked six times since 2003 (including in response to the Crimean invasion.) None of those cases triggered World War III.

World wars start from something small. Not saying this is it, but there are all the reasons to be concerned about today’s events.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#23

Post by salawat » Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 7:23 AM UTC

garbagecoder wrote: post #14

throwaway5752 wrote: post #2

https://valitsus.ee/en/news/estonian-government-requests-con... People are minimizing this, based on the word "consultation". Don't be fooled, this is grave news, even though it is not Article 5. Article 5 invocation under these circumstances have substantial risk of full scale thermonuclear exchange.

You’ve read too many Tom Clancy novels or something. People can declare whatever they want but unless there really is an attack on NATO, no one is talking about Article 5 and in such a circumstance it would be the attack itself and not the citation to a treaty that would be the issue. Also, a “full scale thermonuclear exchange” isn’t what it used to be. Stockpiles are orders of magnitude smaller than in the past, and…

You...realize that all "thermonuclear" is is doping your bomb with tritium/a light fusion stage to generate more neutrons, for more complete fission of the fissile primary, right?

All nuclear weapons are fission. Only newer ones are fusion boosted fission devices.

I assure you, there is more than enough nuclear ordinance laying around to ensure WWIV is fought with sticks and stones.

You do not want.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#24

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 7:23 AM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #12

hef19898 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They consider their security to be threatened, and requested NATO to discuss it. Officially. Which is kind of a big deal. Article 5 can be invoked once, intentionally or by accident, e.g. a NATO plane is attacked over Ukraine. This whole thing is a mess. Despite history since the end of the cold war (which makes some of Russia's positions somewhat understandable, and the fact that NATO didn't do anything different in…

> Despite history since the end of the cold war (which makes some of Russia's positions somewhat understandable, and the fact that NATO didn't do anything different in Iraq and Afghanistan) Can you expand on this? I'm entirely unable to understand why Russia after the cold war didn't become like any other European country and aimed to join the EU etc.

[deleted]

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#25

Post by darebak » Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 7:24 AM UTC

reitanqild wrote: post #21

darebak wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if Western-style democracies don't want to loose their freedoms they have to act. Can you clarify on this? How does recent Russian action threaten freedoms in Western style democracies?

Read modern history. Especially 1936 to 1940. If you are in a hurry you can start here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time

I think I am well versed in European history, thank you for your snarky comment. There's no reason to believe some local conflict will undermine "democracies" all over Europe, notwithstanding the media that is always preying on people's fears.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#26

Post by watwut » Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 7:24 AM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #10

anm89 wrote: post #4

Am I correct in saying that Estonia is categorizing this as a threat to their security therefore requesting the rest of Nato to consider this an attack on a member?

They consider their security to be threatened, and requested NATO to discuss it. Officially. Which is kind of a big deal. Article 5 can be invoked once, intentionally or by accident, e.g. a NATO plane is attacked over Ukraine. This whole thing is a mess. Despite history since the end of the cold war (which makes some of Russia's positions somewhat understandable, and the fact that NATO didn't do anything different in…

What makes Russia position understandable? What gives them right to occupy Ukraine?

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#27

Post by atoav » Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 7:25 AM UTC

bremac wrote: post #17

kragen wrote: post #13

Non-error-message link: https://birdsite.xanny.family/EstonianGovt/status/1496728085... Text, 57 minutes ago: "#Estonia unequivocally condemns #Russia's military attack on #Ukraine and we have decided to launch #NATO consultations under Article 4 of the North Atlantic Treaty with Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and other Allies." Crepuscular photo of some buildings and link to https://valitsus.ee/en/news/estonian-governmen…

That's rather hyperbolic. Article 4 has been invoked six times since 2003 (including in response to the Crimean invasion.) None of those cases triggered World War III.

So hasn't any crown prince murder since the first world war.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#28

Post by darebak » Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 7:27 AM UTC

baby wrote: post #22

bremac wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's rather hyperbolic. Article 4 has been invoked six times since 2003 (including in response to the Crimean invasion.) None of those cases triggered World War III.

World wars start from something small. Not saying this is it, but there are all the reasons to be concerned about today’s events.

I don't think that any of the world wars started out of small things, can you clarify?

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#29

Post by throwaway5752 » Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 7:27 AM UTC

fredophile wrote: post #20

throwaway5752 wrote: post #2

https://valitsus.ee/en/news/estonian-government-requests-con... People are minimizing this, based on the word "consultation". Don't be fooled, this is grave news, even though it is not Article 5. Article 5 invocation under these circumstances have substantial risk of full scale thermonuclear exchange.

Ukraine isn't part of NATO so article 5 doesn't apply here.

That is why I said, "even though it is not Article 5"

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#30

Post by int_19h » Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 7:28 AM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #12

hef19898 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They consider their security to be threatened, and requested NATO to discuss it. Officially. Which is kind of a big deal. Article 5 can be invoked once, intentionally or by accident, e.g. a NATO plane is attacked over Ukraine. This whole thing is a mess. Despite history since the end of the cold war (which makes some of Russia's positions somewhat understandable, and the fact that NATO didn't do anything different in…

> Despite history since the end of the cold war (which makes some of Russia's positions somewhat understandable, and the fact that NATO didn't do anything different in Iraq and Afghanistan) Can you expand on this? I'm entirely unable to understand why Russia after the cold war didn't become like any other European country and aimed to join the EU etc.

It actually did consider joining the EU, and even NATO at one point, but it wasn't taken seriously by either. The NATO intervention in Kosovo was also a major stumbling block.

Internally, democratic reforms in the 90s became associated with 1) corruption far worse than Soviets had, and 2) right-wing economic measures ("liberalization") that messed up the economy and created a lot of hardship for the population at the time. The very words "democrat" and "liberal" became profanities for some.

So when Putin appeared, the popular sentiment in the country already in favor of a "strong hand" for a while. He only needed to fit the image, which he did quite easily with his KGB background. After that, he gradually deconstructed the civil society, starting with free press.