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EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

europarl.europa.eu

341–350 of 388 posts

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. But you're discussing a separate issue. This issue is not about comparing yourself to the starting salaries at other companies. It's about how your pay compares to that of your coworkers, and if the pay practices take advantage of labor (specifically by gender). Are the current new hires at your company making more than you? Even if it's explainable, does that make it right?

What I'm saying is that I object to the "pay practices take advantage of labor" framing. I very well might be paid less than some of my coworkers. If that's true, it's still not the case that anybody took advantage of me. I mean, not in any sense greater than when you buy something you think is worth more than you paid for it and feel like you got a deal. We all "take advantage" every time we buy something for a pric…

The difference is the power imbalance due to the company keeping information secret. When information asymmetry exists, the party with less information is at the mercy of the other.

Your example of products being purchased is a completely different paradigm due to many reasons. The consumer information is available to the company through many avenues such as market research and affiliates. The company generally conceals the cost of producing an item. The scope and duration of the transactions are also majorly different. Let's also remember that the price for the object is the same for everyone, yet you are offering different pay for the same value to the company. That's the problem.

If we really want to go full capitalist libertarian and let markets decide everything, then let's do away with all the protections. I don't want to live half in one system and half in another. Why should we have protected classes or offer accommodations for disabilities? I think you'll find the answer also supports other workers rights, such as the ones being discussed/proposed here.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true at all. If it were so easy, why don't I have one? More people are paid below $110k than above (median).

Levels.fyi Teamblind.com Leetcode.com study these 3 for 6 months and you will easily get over 200k.

I can't. My family mostly consumes all my free time. I'm also not able to relocate since my wife doesn't want to. $200k would be highly unlikely in my area.

PS I hate how people say 'easily' for salaries that are basically double the median for devs. If it was easy, everyone would have it.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true at all. If it were so easy, why don't I have one? More people are paid below $110k than above (median).

How big an environment are we talking about? More then about 50 servers, you're underpaid if you aren't making 6 figures.

I'm not a network administrator. I have training in that space. If it were really that easy to find a job paying that, then I would go do it.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#344
post #20

Is there anything in this text that would prevent a company from posting offers with very large ranges? "this position salary can be from €35k to 75k€ depending on multiple factors" Such ranges would render it pointless

The reality (based on my current interviewing) is open roles already have this range, and it is relatively wide. But by not disclosing they can get you lower. Say range is 170-220, you are coming from 170; they offer you 170 and you negotiate 180. You feel good and got a bump, but employer could have gone higher. But not all employers are offering the same range. I ask up front now and select the higher paying ranges…

If they post 170-220 they can afford 220, and everybody will be hitting the upper margin of that.... this means that they'll advertise 140-190, you'll get 180, and be happy, even though they had a budget for 220, if they couldn't get you to do it for 180.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The reality is that not everyone brings equal value to an org. Some are rockstars and others are meh. It’s natural, and you should be incentivized to improve." I agree. But that's not incompatible with transparent pay. If this other person is producing more value and getting paid more, great. But show me how that value is twice my own. Those measurements should be going on in performance reviews. Largely, nobody car…

The way to do this fairly and transparently is piecemeal pay. Just like how instead of paying a factory worker £x per hour you can pay £y per widget. If superstar Bob ships 10x widgets he gets 10x pay and everyone will agree it is fair. Note CEO total compensation is usually £x per y% increase in share price or revenue. Salespeople get x% for each sale, and what's good for the goose is good for the gander. You could…

right but most people don't actually want this unless base pay already covers all their cash flow needs. quality of life is much better with a consistent $80k salary than making $100k on average but with huge variance.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The reality is that not everyone brings equal value to an org. Some are rockstars and others are meh. It’s natural, and you should be incentivized to improve." I agree. But that's not incompatible with transparent pay. If this other person is producing more value and getting paid more, great. But show me how that value is twice my own. Those measurements should be going on in performance reviews. Largely, nobody car…

The way to do this fairly and transparently is piecemeal pay. Just like how instead of paying a factory worker £x per hour you can pay £y per widget. If superstar Bob ships 10x widgets he gets 10x pay and everyone will agree it is fair. Note CEO total compensation is usually £x per y% increase in share price or revenue. Salespeople get x% for each sale, and what's good for the goose is good for the gander. You could…

The performance measures for software dev are already extremely subjective. "Widgets" only work if they are the same. Each software functionally is vastly different in scope and complexity. The quality is very subjective too. Did they build it to be extensible/future-proof? Maybe that's good, or maybe that's a waste by your manager's opinion.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true at all. If it were so easy, why don't I have one? More people are paid below $110k than above (median).

How big an environment are we talking about? More then about 50 servers, you're underpaid if you aren't making 6 figures.

I don't think it's controversial to assume that most non-helpdesk IT staff are being underpaid for the value they bring to their companies.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#348

I look forward to when every human interaction is finally regulated in law, and we're still not happy.

Don't worry, even getting close enough to that dystopia will wipe out the society and so not that many people will be left to worry about happiness.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#349
post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

> Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history Aw, that was one of the fun moments when getting my current job. I moved from private sector to public sector and they're like "You understand that the previous pay you listed is more than our boss's boss, the director of our entire org unit gets paid right?". Yes, yes I do. Which is why when you asked at interview "Why do you want this role…

>How "inability to give a straight answer on anything" and "refusal to make any meaningful decisions" came to be considered good leadership traits is a mystery to me

I mean, it's fairly obvious that those are traits which contribute to building the social capital for obtaining a leadership position (which, from everything I've heard, tends to be more important than actually being a good fit for a given leadership role)

See also the Peter principle.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. Why do you think there is such hostility to them?

A lot of them are really corrupt. In slovenia, unions are very friendly with some political parties and unfrieldly with others, and the "other" one proposed a tax change, which would basically lower the income tax by raising the zero-eth tax bracket level (progressive taxes, 0% for first X eur, then 16% for the next bracket, 26% for the next,... X was to be raised). This would mean that someone earning minimum wage w…

That's fair. Unions can be corrupt in the US too. If they get greedy, they can take down the company (manufacturing can only compensate up to a certain point depending on international compensation).

I have started believing in unions more over the years because I work for a company that is well known for doing the right thing and caring. Yet, I've repeatedly seen the company break its own policies and screws people over. So I feel the issue is pervasive if this is really a "good" company.

It could be that contracts without a union could fix my main complaint - not consistently following the rules. But the only way to force this is through legislation or unions. Unions seem to be more feasible.

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