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EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

europarl.europa.eu

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Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#301

Post by RHSeeger »

jdright wrote: post #108
dijonman2 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that not everyone brings equal value to an org. Some are rockstars and others are meh. It’s natural, and you should be incentivized to improve.

This is a bs argument. If there is actually a "rockstar" and a "meh", they should be at different levels with clear payscale.

Why is it that you think that? For a small to mid sized company, developer roles of [Junior Dev, Dev, Senior Dev, Principal Dev, Architect] are not uncommon. In that scale, someone who "is an individual contributor, with the ability to mentor others" fits into "Senior Dev". It is entirely possible to be _amazing_ as an individual contributor... or be just barely able to fulfill the role. But moving up in the ladder isn't correct, since that indicates a change in roles.

For large companies, that distinguish between "role" and "level", sure. But a LOT of companies aren't big enough to do that.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#302

Post by wikibob »

giantg2 wrote: post #202
mrkstu wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you're not in the USA? As a network architect, even non-coastal jobs are easily had for $120,000 and go up from there...

I don't think that's true at all. If it were so easy, why don't I have one? More people are paid below $110k than above (median).

Levels.fyi Teamblind.com Leetcode.com

study these 3 for 6 months and you will easily get over 200k.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#303

Post by craigie »

sz4kerto wrote: post #244
giantg2 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree the gender wage gap is generally an issue at the aggregate level due to individual choices. I disagree with the language you use later in the comment (fought, won, given). Negotiation skills shouldn't drive compensation. Value to the company should. If someone is doing the same work and making the same value, then they are earning their salary. Differences in pay can be explained by documenting the difference…

> Negotiation skills shouldn't drive compensation. Value to the company should. What percentage of the per-employee revenue do employees deserve? Negotiation is the way of establishing this, and 'value' is only one part of the equation. Similarly: price of products on the market are not established based on how valuable that product is to the buyer. That's only one factor. I understand the appeeal of what you're sayi…

>What percentage of the per-employee revenue do employees deserve

While this may vary from company to company and even job to job surely all employees doing the same job deserve the same per cent.

You wouldn't give one salesman twice the commission because he's a 'superstar'

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#304

Post by dionidium »

giantg2 wrote: post #254
dionidium wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a poor negotiator and started my career with a pretty middling salary at a big company in the Midwest. I also tend to get comfortable in roles and don't advocate for myself well or jump jobs often. What this adds up to is that I'm now mid-career and doing fine, but not making anything like the startling salary numbers you sometimes see mentioned here. But I don't blame anybody for it. Nobody owes me more money. N…

You're right. But you're discussing a separate issue. This issue is not about comparing yourself to the starting salaries at other companies. It's about how your pay compares to that of your coworkers, and if the pay practices take advantage of labor (specifically by gender). Are the current new hires at your company making more than you? Even if it's explainable, does that make it right?

What I'm saying is that I object to the "pay practices take advantage of labor" framing. I very well might be paid less than some of my coworkers. If that's true, it's still not the case that anybody took advantage of me. I mean, not in any sense greater than when you buy something you think is worth more than you paid for it and feel like you got a deal. We all "take advantage" every time we buy something for a price less than the maximum we'd be willing to pay.

I recognize, for what it's worth, that this is not a popular intuition (even though I maintain that it's the correct one). People get similarly outraged when they learn about price discrimination schemes, which I find entirely unobjectionable.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#305

Post by matwood »

tialaramex wrote: post #18
pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

> Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history Aw, that was one of the fun moments when getting my current job. I moved from private sector to public sector and they're like "You understand that the previous pay you listed is more than our boss's boss, the director of our entire org unit gets paid right?". Yes, yes I do. Which is why when you asked at interview "Why do you want this role…

> "You understand that the previous pay you listed is more than our boss's boss, the director of our entire org unit gets paid right?"

My response to this comment/question is always "it's not my problem you're underpaying everyone else."

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#306

Post by SantalBlush »

ethbr0 wrote: post #95
iso1631 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is I spend time applying for a job which claims a "competitive" salary for a "network architect", and eventually find it's in the 35-45k range "depending on skills" Those companies then run off to government saying "we can't employ anyone" Fortunately more and more job listings on linked in are listing ballpark salaries so it's easy to ignore them, there's a few coming up which are reasonable salaries for…

I get why employer's tendency is to withhold pay information. But ultimately, it's a waste of my time and their time if we're not close enough. So disclosure seems win/win.

Employers are still used to an employer's market, where they could string desperate applicants along, then hit them with, "This is the salary, take it or leave it." They're slow to adjust to today's job market.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#307

Post by imiric »

sfg wrote: post #284

Where does contracting fit into all of this? If you leave the formal structure of employment and don't fit into the set job titles of a company (or within, but as a contractor and so a different pay band), then can you effectively work around this? If so, then will those currently getting paid more move into contracting? They'd probably end up with more pay (even than they get now) if they did, so will we see a decre…

For contractors the rate is already negotiated up front IME. Either the recruiter will mention the offered rate along with the role details, or you as a contractor will mention what your rate is.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#308

Post by craigie »

giantg2 wrote: post #251
sz4kerto wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Negotiation skills shouldn't drive compensation. Value to the company should. What percentage of the per-employee revenue do employees deserve? Negotiation is the way of establishing this, and 'value' is only one part of the equation. Similarly: price of products on the market are not established based on how valuable that product is to the buyer. That's only one factor. I understand the appeeal of what you're sayi…

Perhaps the best way to do raise is through collective bargaining - a union.

Yup. Why do you think there is such hostility to them?

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#309

Post by bjelkeman-again »

exdsq wrote: post #300
mendigou wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're still looking to do that I can definitely recommend a company in the same timezone! Alén Space is hiring and I can tell you it's a great team (I used to work with the founders).

I absolutely would love to still deploy code to space but I now live in the Bay Area! And am waiting on my EAD so currently unemployed for ~3 months :) If you know of any open source projects that go to space I have an abundant amount of free time!

Check out https://nexusaurora.org/

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#310

Post by realusername »

gzer0 wrote: post #233

Is there anything in this mandate that prevents corporations from listing unreasonably large ranges? For the sake of this example, let's say FAANG is looking for a software engineer and the range for the job listing is: 68k - 600k . Would this be allowed? I ask because Denver, Colorado has identical mandated restrictions for job listings, and employers are skirting regulations by offering ridiculously broad ranges, p…

The lower range still gives some information and will probably be used as an indication of what the company is at least willing to pay.

If they put it way lower than their actual budget, it will scare away the candidates they are targeting.

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