Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree the gender wage gap is generally an issue at the aggregate level due to individual choices. I disagree with the language you use later in the comment (fought, won, given). Negotiation skills shouldn't drive compensation. Value to the company should. If someone is doing the same work and making the same value, then they are earning their salary. Differences in pay can be explained by documenting the difference…
> Negotiation skills shouldn't drive compensation. Value to the company should. What percentage of the per-employee revenue do employees deserve? Negotiation is the way of establishing this, and 'value' is only one part of the equation. Similarly: price of products on the market are not established based on how valuable that product is to the buyer. That's only one factor. I understand the appeeal of what you're sayi…
EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]
251–260 of 388 posts
Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]
#252Great then everyone knows the minimum salary I earn. I always wanted that.
My last job was for a local government in the US. All public employees in the entire state have their exact salaries (including before and after benefits) publicly available for anyone to see.
Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]
#253My admittedly limited understanding of the gender pay gap is that it is based on gender differences in interests (eg. career-wise), differences in willingness to work long hours (especially with age), and differences in temperament, ie. women on the whole having lower assertiveness and thus being less likely to ask for higher salaries and raises. The "equal work" part takes care of the first two points, ie. the type…
Of all the apologetics around pay gap, I think this is the one that many people could agree is the least fair. The company knows you're worth more, they can feasibly pay you more, they pay someone similarly skilled and talented more. But they do not simply because of a conversation at the very beginning of accepting a role (and once a year). Talk about an abusive angle. That's like saying to a child "Oh you could have got a PS5 and a game for your birthday, but you only asked for a new game for your ps4"... Employers should be seeking ways to retain talent and underpaying is a ticking timebomb.
The cost of rehiring is MASSIVE:
ad/promotion cost for the role(indeed), at least 100 hours of interview time (across candidates), 1/3rd the salary to the recruiter, 3-6 months of gradual training before they're "highly productive", losing 1-3 months of adopting team's productivity to training that person, losing the institutional knowledge of the outgoing person. Losing the opportunity of having a tenured person to promote into a higher level that is even more expensive to hire for. Not to mention the opportunity cost of the work that could have been done (eg if instead all those resources made your product better)
It's asinine to think someone would risk losing an employee over $20k when those costs above easily amount to 10x that.
Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree the gender wage gap is generally an issue at the aggregate level due to individual choices. I disagree with the language you use later in the comment (fought, won, given). Negotiation skills shouldn't drive compensation. Value to the company should. If someone is doing the same work and making the same value, then they are earning their salary. Differences in pay can be explained by documenting the difference…
I'm a poor negotiator and started my career with a pretty middling salary at a big company in the Midwest. I also tend to get comfortable in roles and don't advocate for myself well or jump jobs often. What this adds up to is that I'm now mid-career and doing fine, but not making anything like the startling salary numbers you sometimes see mentioned here. But I don't blame anybody for it. Nobody owes me more money. N…
Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unless you’re on an assembly line, there is no such thing as “equal work”. Several of my colleagues and I share the same title, yet the women with that title objectively produce less than the men and absolutely deserve less pay (at my company). Is that because of sexism? Or because we judge the individual, not the gender? This seems like a backdoor for Socialism where this backwards logic is used to justify paying ev…
>people who are massively productive end up subsidizing those who are useless. They already do, you are subsidising owners/shareholders a lot more than you'll ever subsidise your "useless" colleagues.
Some amount of subsidizing "[economically] useless" people is a matter of society taking care of their lowest. Disabled people, people with IQ < 100, people who took good chances and had bad dice outcomes etc.
Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
I once took a break from software and applied to be a cashier at Barnes & Noble (just to get out of the house). It was entertaining to watch the manager hastily scan the application for a $7/hour, 10 hours/week job and then pause and try to find a polite way to break it to me that they weren't going to meet the $180k I made at my previous job.
Did you get the job? For a lot of jobs like that they will deny you for being overqualified. I know a guy who had a double doctorate, couldn't find a job anywhere for nearly two years due to being overqualified.
Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]
#257Honestly, it’s going to be embarrassing with these low salaries when we socialize with non EU colleagues!
I used to think this (as a euro), then I met an American and he explained that he ended up better off in Europe on a "lower" salary because he hadn't considered the hidden costs of living in the USA. He claimed (though I'm certainly no expert) that you have to do your own taxes and set aside money for that; he also claimed that "sales tax" had local, state and federal taxes applied, so while it varies from state to s…
I think it's really hard to have this discussion without some hard numbers. Note that this is a simplified analysis. I am not accounting for the various deductibles (social security, etc.), state taxes etc. I have restricted the analysis to roughly-comparable cities, but it seems to hold at the national level as well.
Currency conversions are left as an exercise to the reader :)
====================================
Median salary for a senior developer
- Paris: 65k € (Paris) (n.b.: some sources say 45k €, but this does not match my experience)
- London: 90k £
- New York City: $160k
======================
Tax Brackets in France
Up to 10,225 € 0 %
From 10,226 € to 26,070 € 11 %
From 26,071 € to 74,545 € 30 %
From 74 546 € to 160,336 € 41 %
Above 160,336 € 45 %
==================================
Tax Brackets in the United Kingdom
Up to £12,570 0%
From £12,571 to £50,270 20%
From £50,271 to £150,000 40%
Above £150,000 45%
=================================
Tax Brackets in the United States
From $0 to $9,950 10%
From $9,951 to $40,525 $995 plus 12% of the amount over $9,950
From $40,526 to $86,375 $4,664 plus 22% of the amount over $40,525
From $86,376 to $164,925 $14,751 plus 24% of the amount over $86,375
From $164,926 to $209,425 $33,603 plus 32% of the amount over $164,925
From $209,426 to $523,600 $47,843 plus 35% of the amount over $209,425
Above $523,600.99 $157,804.25 plus 37% of the amount over $523,600
There are many reasons to pick one place to live over another, but it's very difficult to argue against the enormous economic advantage to working in the US, even with the "hidden costs".
With regards to health insurance in particular, it's important to point out that the quality of care on the upper end of the spectrum is far better than anything I've ever had access to in Europe. I pay $1.2k/month in health insurance and pay nothing out of pocket for: dental, vision, emergency care, ambulance transportation, extended stay in hospital, mental health services, etc. I have a $10 copay for all medications. Waiting times for appointments are on the order of single-digit days. If you make the median income for a senior software dev in NYC, that leaves you with about $145k.
Concerning cars, they are far more affordable here than in Europe, especially if you buy a reliable used car. I drive a 2000 Subaru Legacy with about 125k miles on it. It costs me about $850/year to insure. I pay about $100/month in gas, so let's round that up to $1,500 per annum. Last year, I spent $1,236.57 in maintenance & repairs. Total cost of ownership: approximately $3,600 per annum. If you make the median income for a senior software dev in NYC, that now leaves you with $141,400.
College education? It's wildly variable, but let's take the pessimistic case of sending your two children to an Ivy League school that costs $75k per year. Let's be even more conservative and factor in an additional $25k in non-tuition costs (room & board, meals, books, pocket money, etc.). That's a total of $800k for two BAs. Assuming you have twins who go to college at the same time, that leaves you with 18 years to accrue those savings, or about $45k/year. Taking the leftover salary, that leaves you with about $96k. For comparison, my education in an American "public Ivy" school cost about 36% of this figure, which would leave you with about $125 in gross annual income. There are tax deductions for tuition fees, and many scholarships available for good students.
It bears repeating that there are many good reasons to prefer living in Europe over the US. Economic analysis is not the only relevant analysis. But, it is very difficult to argue that the cost-of-living breaks even for the overwhelming majority of STEM jobs, or jobs requiring post-secondary education. If you have a college degree, you will almost certainly have more money in the United States than in the European Union, by a significant margin. There is a reason the Brain Drain exists.
Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
I read somewhere pay transparency just lowers the amount of pay for disagreeable people who try to earn more. It makes things cheaper for businesses in general because it's harder to get a rise. Nobody has ever been able to define what equal pay for equal work means because every human being is different (skills, work ethic, ease of working with them, timeliness, negotiation skills, assertiveness, leadership ability…
>I read somewhere pay transparency just lowers the amount of pay for disagreeable people who try to earn more. It makes things cheaper for businesses in general because it's harder to get a rise. Then wouldn't you see businesses fighting for it instead of against it?
Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
That doesn't work very well because if you have a large range then most candidates would be disappointed if they got towards the bottom end, even if that made pratical sense. Maybe you could mitigate this by making the range even larger at the bottom end, below the minimum that you would ever pay, but then you'd put off the best people (who are the people that you most want to avoid putting off).
Why would the best candidates be put off by a low minimum? Their salary isn't going to have anything to do with the minimum. If anything, the best candidates should prefer a wide range. That would mean there is more opportunity for them to distinguish themselves beyond just "years served".
Because they now know they're competing for a position with (a lot of) people willing to work for half their salary, and they know employers like to pay as little as possible if they can get away with it - so their chances are pretty low. It becomes obvious that there is little point in going through the process altogether.
Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]
#260Earlier quoted context omitted.
I read somewhere pay transparency just lowers the amount of pay for disagreeable people who try to earn more. It makes things cheaper for businesses in general because it's harder to get a rise. Nobody has ever been able to define what equal pay for equal work means because every human being is different (skills, work ethic, ease of working with them, timeliness, negotiation skills, assertiveness, leadership ability…
>I read somewhere pay transparency just lowers the amount of pay for disagreeable people who try to earn more. It makes things cheaper for businesses in general because it's harder to get a rise. Then wouldn't you see businesses fighting for it instead of against it?