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In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

thehub.ca

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Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#151

The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…

> The simple answer is to reject the cashless society.

I don't think you realize how cashless society really is. For a long time, we've been running on fiat money, debt, and other forms of monetary constructs that are, for all intents and purposes, just numbers in some database without the backing of physical bills. Imagine coordinating all of the stakeholders for a condominium building project with only paper currency; it'd be a madness only marginally better than bartering.

The idea of rejecting a cashless society is eerily similar to Project Mayhem from the movie Fight Club, with all the chaotic anarchy that supposedly comes with it.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#152

The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…

>I'll take inconvenience over slavery any day of the week.

so much this. I simply do not want my money to be easy to spend. I want to enter a pin code and carry a physical card. That creates engagement which raises my awareness of what I am spending.

Same with cash, when you count it out, it creates engagement and awareness of what you are spending.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Satoshi called it digital cash actually for a reason, not cashlessness. It has similar properties to physical cash, as the ownership can't be taken away trivially. The problem is that people are still waking up slowly. For me the Cyprus bail-in in 2013 was the wake-up call that I need full ownership of my assets.

The key issue with using Bitcoin as a digital form of cash is that Bitcoin lacks a key property of cash: fungibility. Combine this with the transparent nature of Bitcoin's blockchain and you have a currency which is an authoritarian's dream and not a currency that could/should replace cash.

Bitcoin is not totally lacking fungibility, as there are ways to make the coins more fungible, but it needs more developer support. Wasabi wallet has coinjoin support, although it's not easy to use, not automated, doesn't work on mobile phone and expensive for most people. Also of course exchanges try to AML-KYC them out, as govermnets are trying to fight it.

Implementing Schnorr signatures was a great way to get closer to fungibility improvements, as it paves the path for signature batching, which can make CoinJoin cheaper than a single transaction, and will change the incentives towards making Bitcoin fungible by default for every user.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

many Walmart and other grocery self-checkouts began only accepting cards due to a ""coin shortage"" during covid, and it seems like they now have no reason to revert.

No need for scare quotes; it was (still is?) a real thing. My local rural grocery store has had a hard time getting coins for making change basically since covid started.

they aren't scare quotes, we just never got a good explanation for why there was a shortage, aside from some vague hand-waving about covid.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#155
Young people may have never experienced actual freedom and privacy. Here goes.

I grew up in the 80s, in Europe. The only thing the government knew of me was that I existed and which school I attended, and absolutely nothing else. There were no recording devices anywhere. My actions, my communication, my spending, all private. I was still a kid though. My dad worked and got cash in hand. It was also common to obscure parts of your income that way, but only "party money", as you don't want to overdo this.

Society worked just fine, just to make the point that this supposed chaos of having pretty much no surveillance or data at all, did not lead to an abundance of crime, terrorism, or other issues conveniently folded under "national security". Which just shows that justifications for surveillance really are razor thin. Same for their effectiveness in actual stopping all that bad stuff.

We all know what happened next, the rise of computing in business and government, and 9/11 as a perfect excuse to do the largest data grab ever, and to never ever dial that back.

Then social networks and smartphones happened and anything ever is recorded, in the hands of private businesses, with back doors to the government. From knowing zero to knowing everything, it didn't take long.

Same for finance. Where everybody freely transacted in a cash-based society, now it raises suspicion. You can't just withdraw a lot of cash, send an amount to a friend, cross a border or even pay with big bills. There's KYC and capital controls, you don't transact with privacy, are you nuts? The world would fall apart.

We've all silently went along with it, because we're all good people and only criminals are affected by this. Furthermore, we live in stable democracies under the rule of law.

Canada broke this expectation severely. Under the disguise of an "emergency law" they seized assets, redistributed them, forced private businesses to give up personal data, freeze bank accounts and block credit cards. Supposedly, even for second-hand interactions with protesters, such as donating to them. And shockingly, they do all of this with a straight face.

I don't care how you feel about the protest itself. If it is indeed an illegal protest, you arrest the protestor, tell them which law they broke, and put them through the legal process. Which includes rights like the right to a defense, clear claims, a process by jury (or judge), and then a fine or prison time, based on earlier precedents and the book of law.

You don't go and digitally "cancel" citizens without any form of process. If you believe this is warranted, flip the script and apply this arbitrary power to a protest that you do agree with. Say a right-wing government is in power, and there's new BLM protests. Would you be OK with the government tracking every protesters, arbitrarily requesting private data from private businesses you interacted with, and then financially wipe you out without any process at all?

After this historical fly-by, we've learned that surveillance is additive. It never gets dialed back. We also learned that your private data is in no way private, also not when interacting with private businesses or your peers. We've learned that if technology allows for more surveillance it will be used and it will be abused.

Digital level abuse is a sight to behold. A cop doesn't need to find you and carry you to jail and go through this annoying delicate process. No, a politician pushes a button and thousands of you will be dysfunctional. This thought is supposed to scare you, a lot.

All this while, your personal freedom and privacy is shrinking. Rapidly.

And we're not done yet. We're now entering the territory of what formerly would be considered conspiracy theories. I used to laugh at the following, but not anymore.

There's crypto, which can be considered private, unregulated money. Digital money is inevitable so the government is waking up to the idea of digital (crypto) money issued by central banks.

This version would not be anonymous, hence this marks the death of cash and transaction privacy. Everything you will ever transact from here on out is known. And can be blocked from a single point, or subject to approval.

It also marks the death of private commercial banks. The central bank issues the currency as well as holds your "wallet".

With this, some serious monetary policy can begin. Because crypto is programmable and monetary policy is running out of instruments, such is the health of our financial system.

Are you hoarding too much money? Let me turn that dial of interest rate to negative 20%. Low consumer demand? Here's 100 new money for every citizen. Major environmental problems? Let me block the buying of oversized televisions directly from your wallet.

Far-fetched? I don't think so. Think back of the 80s, the starting point. Think it won't happen? Think Canada.

Let me remind you of the Panama papers. Did this huge group of people have their assets seized? Do any jail time? No. The big fish are cleared. All of this is for idiots like you and me.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#156
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carrying cash is exactly how you lose it all to police corruption, sometimes called civil asset forfeiture. Cash is no answer without sufficient legal protections. And if you have sufficient legal protections, cash mostly just buys you inconvenience. The problem isn't businesses going cashless. The problem is leaving structural control over money to profit-seeking enterprises.

If only there were a digital cash that you can self custody, easily verify and transfer. In all seriousness, I think some form of cryptocurrency could serve this purpose and move us away from relying on banks that act on behalf of the state. Obviously there's a whole lot of baggage with the current cryptocurrencies out there today, but there's no reason we have to resort to carrying around pieces of paper or voting f…

> I think some form of cryptocurrency could serve this purpose and move us away from relying on banks that act on behalf of the state.

If such a crypto would exist, with enough stability, trust and ease to make transactions, the state would be so unhappy that day that it would make it illegal faster than light. Removing monopolies from the state are huge challenges.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#157
post #151

The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…

> The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. I don't think you realize how cashless society really is. For a long time, we've been running on fiat money, debt, and other forms of monetary constructs that are, for all intents and purposes, just numbers in some database without the backing of physical bills. Imagine coordinating all of the stakeholders for a condominium building project with only paper curren…

No-one is talking about banning the concept of a transaction.

It's about being able to pay for basic needs (rent, bills, food) via cash.

This is not some impossible crazy thing. Cash was used for >90% of purchases including weekly bills not that long ago whilst skyscrapers and big business deals didn't involve briefcases of cash being thrown around.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people out number the military by nearly 300-1. If you think a million soldiers are going to occupy the USA without resorting to obscene levels of violence (such that money is not your concern) you're a bit mistaken.

> The people out number the military by nearly 300-1. Armed military and paramilitary government agents, including active and reserve military and internal security services are about .9%,of US population, not the .3% you suggest: 1.4 million active, 800k reserve, 700k police, for 2.9 million of 330 million.

Does the figure being "only" 100-1 instead of 300-1 really detract from the point? Would that whole 0.9% even stand on the same side?

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#159
post #81
post #57

I agree that this needs to be taken very seriously. However, the author overstates his case significantly when he writes: > Doing this to someone—a small business owner in BC, a public servant in Winnipeg, a student in Halifax—who made a small donation to support the convoy is a clear abuse of power. However: > The RCMP, banking sector and federal government said Monday that account-freezing powers bestowed under the…

If anything this reinforces the author's point about the dangers of lack of transparency of "digital jail". How do we know that statement is true? It's hard to hide who has been jailed (though "disappearances" come close), whereas we have no choice but to take the word of the entity which we have granted unchecked power that it has not abused that power. There's also plenty of wiggle room in their statement - they sa…

It is utterly amazing to me that despite all of human history being filled with stories of egregious human rights violations, lies, and propaganda coming from governments all across the political spectrum and world that people still trot out the "look, read this official information. This is proof!" excuse. How many more examples do we need before the opposite is assumed?

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#160
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carrying cash is exactly how you lose it all to police corruption, sometimes called civil asset forfeiture. Cash is no answer without sufficient legal protections. And if you have sufficient legal protections, cash mostly just buys you inconvenience. The problem isn't businesses going cashless. The problem is leaving structural control over money to profit-seeking enterprises.

We can fix that, and it is being addressed. Cash is a great answer to a whole lot of basic commerce, small scale, freedom style, between adults just adulting. The problem IS businesses refusing cash. The public really does not benefit and we have not shown we are able to avoid abusing electronics. One day maybe. Right now? Not a chance. Cash remains necessary and the costs are not crazy enough to warrant all the abus…

"We can fix that"

You sure about that? Currently Chicago's mayor is trying to bring it back.

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