Freezing assets without due process is definitely the problem. Even before the digital age, most money was kept in the bank.
In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously
71–80 of 849 posts
Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient, it's hard to beat that. We need more constitutional human rights. It's not okay to take or freeze somebody's money/property without any court decision. Edit: some of the answers assume that I'm against cash or that by saying "battle is lost" I mean cash is gone; My point of "cashless winning" is tha…
We don't have limited rights. You need to work on understanding that rights are not granted. Rights are inherent. Enumeration of rights is only to emphasize the importance
As soon as some rights are violated, you don't have them any more. The language of "granting" could be changed to "respecting" and it would be an improvement indeed. But rights are only natural and inherent to the extent that people are free to exercise them in absence of interference.
Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient, it's hard to beat that. We need more constitutional human rights. It's not okay to take or freeze somebody's money/property without any court decision. Edit: some of the answers assume that I'm against cash or that by saying "battle is lost" I mean cash is gone; My point of "cashless winning" is tha…
If you base your life purely around some nebulous definition of convenience, then you are not living, you are following the path of least resistance. In a few short years or decades it will be more convenient to simply plug yourself into the wall. What then? "We" simply accept that the real world is too inconvenient? Too resource intensive, too difficult, too ugly? You do you, boo, I ain't down for that.
Well, considering the "real world" too inconvenient and seeking ways to make it less so is what humanity has been doing for millennia, right? Most people use a washing machine rather than washing their clothes in the river, because indeed, the latter is too resource intensive, difficult and ugly if you have an alternative.
Of course, this doesn't mean that a technology that provides convenience can't come with hidden costs, and the cashless society indeed comes with risks. That's where the interesting debate is IMO, but the fact that people value convenience is quite reasonable and not new.
Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
Carrying cash is exactly how you lose it all to police corruption, sometimes called civil asset forfeiture. Cash is no answer without sufficient legal protections. And if you have sufficient legal protections, cash mostly just buys you inconvenience. The problem isn't businesses going cashless. The problem is leaving structural control over money to profit-seeking enterprises.
How precisely do the police seize the assets of tens of thousands of people simultaneously? They can't. This is a completely different issue, one which doesn't go away if cash isn't involved. The police could just as easily decide to seize your car or your watch or your computer or the clothes off of your back. On a one-by-one basis. It's mass surveillance vs. targeted all over again.
It is called war and it isn't the police doing it then, it is the military.
Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient, it's hard to beat that. We need more constitutional human rights. It's not okay to take or freeze somebody's money/property without any court decision. Edit: some of the answers assume that I'm against cash or that by saying "battle is lost" I mean cash is gone; My point of "cashless winning" is tha…
Driving is also easier and more convenient than walking but it would be absurd to suggest that everyone should have a car available for them to drive as a constitutional human rights. Another counter point is that cash is arguably easier and more convenient in some aspects for some people.
Nit: owning property is a constitutional right. Compelling someone else to provide it for you with the force of law is not.
Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously
#76The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…
The simple answer is to reject the cashless society.
Agreed.
Recently, I came across a coffee shop and a bakery that proudly displayed "We are cashless. No cash accepted." signs.
Not accepting cash is a method of discrimination. It keeps people without bank accounts out of your establishment. The overwhelming number of people without bank accounts are minorities and immigrants. That's why in some cities it is illegal for a retail business to refuse cash.
Maybe those businesses saved 0.006¢ on the transaction by not accepting cash. But they lost thousands because a fat guy isn't going to buy cookies there in the future.
Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you pay taxes in cash? I don't think it's possible in my country.
The next step will be somebody who is in "digital jail" and can't pay taxes so ends up guilty of tax evasion too.
Inability to pay taxes is not tax evasion, of either of the recognized types in the US (evasion of assessment, i.e., concealment of facts that would indicate tax is due, or evasion of payment, i.e., concealment of or movement out of reach of taxing authorities of funds with which taxes that are due could be paid.)
Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously
#78The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…
Carrying cash is exactly how you lose it all to police corruption, sometimes called civil asset forfeiture. Cash is no answer without sufficient legal protections. And if you have sufficient legal protections, cash mostly just buys you inconvenience. The problem isn't businesses going cashless. The problem is leaving structural control over money to profit-seeking enterprises.
We can fix that, and it is being addressed.
Cash is a great answer to a whole lot of basic commerce, small scale, freedom style, between adults just adulting.
The problem IS businesses refusing cash. The public really does not benefit and we have not shown we are able to avoid abusing electronics.
One day maybe. Right now? Not a chance.
Cash remains necessary and the costs are not crazy enough to warrant all the abuses and risks other payment forms bring to the table.
I do not connect payments to my phone for example. Everyone I know who did has a story to tell about how doing that cost them.
Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient, it's hard to beat that. We need more constitutional human rights. It's not okay to take or freeze somebody's money/property without any court decision. Edit: some of the answers assume that I'm against cash or that by saying "battle is lost" I mean cash is gone; My point of "cashless winning" is tha…
Driving is also easier and more convenient than walking but it would be absurd to suggest that everyone should have a car available for them to drive as a constitutional human rights. Another counter point is that cash is arguably easier and more convenient in some aspects for some people.
Owning a car is a constitutional right as owning other stuff. It’s called property right.
Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously
#80What happens when it's not the government doing it? What happens when Facebook's algorithms decide to cut you off from your friends? Or when Google decides to cut you off from your emails and cloud storage? When payment processors decide to kick your business off their network?
What happens is we make laws to outlaw this behavior.