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In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

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Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#141

Post by [deleted] »

bgirard wrote: post #127
throwaway22032 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, you're just not thinking about it. Trivial solution: I walk to bank some day once a month, give them cash, give them account numbers, sent. It'd be done in all of ten minutes. Does it exist where you live? Maybe, maybe not. Hell, if I knew you I'd do it for you, I'd enjoy obfuscating my accounts. And no-one is saying that literally every transaction has to be done in cash, just that it should be _possible_ to do…

I care barely drive to a bank within 10 minutes, which isn't the bank I have an account with. It's only open during my work hours (9-5pm M-F), or I have to go on a Saturday. The wait time to see a clerk alone are often 10 minutes or more. And the clerk can't help me make certain payments that require me to use a web portal or mail a cheque. > The idea that cash is this hilariously inconvenient thing is a complete fab…

[deleted]

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#142

Post by Godel_unicode »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #66
chowells wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carrying cash is exactly how you lose it all to police corruption, sometimes called civil asset forfeiture. Cash is no answer without sufficient legal protections. And if you have sufficient legal protections, cash mostly just buys you inconvenience. The problem isn't businesses going cashless. The problem is leaving structural control over money to profit-seeking enterprises.

How precisely do the police seize the assets of tens of thousands of people simultaneously? They can't. This is a completely different issue, one which doesn't go away if cash isn't involved. The police could just as easily decide to seize your car or your watch or your computer or the clothes off of your back. On a one-by-one basis. It's mass surveillance vs. targeted all over again.

By ordering the banks to close their accounts. People are not holding significant portions of their wealth in physical cash outside of the banking system. Apart from it being absurdly dangerous, there's also not anything like enough physical currency to do that. Not to mention investment accounts, deeds to property, etc.

Businesses being forced to accept all the risk and inconvenience of accepting cash to protect people from having their assets is somewhere between a security theater and a straight up pipe dream.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#143

Post by a_shovel »

If the problem is that accounts were being frozen without due process, then couldn't it be solved by adding some due process to it, instead of just banning freezing accounts outright? Treat it more like an arrest. People who are arrested still have rights; it should be the same here. It should be strong enough to limit criminals while still allowing the innocent proper recourse.

Have a version of the writ of habeas corpus (habeas numus?) to quickly undo unlawful freezing. Maybe allow small amounts of money to be released to the accused, large enough to live on but too small to be of much use to criminals. Have an exception for paying for a lawyer. And if they're cleared, require banks not to keep records of the freezing to prevent discrimination.

(Discussions of this topic should also all include a mention of civil forfeiture, which is effectively when police officers are legally allowed to rob you. This is a thing that already exists and happens regularly.)

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#144

Post by mycall »

throw_nbvc1234 wrote: post #95
encryptluks2 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is called war and it isn't the police doing it then, it is the military.

The people out number the military by nearly 300-1. If you think a million soldiers are going to occupy the USA without resorting to obscene levels of violence (such that money is not your concern) you're a bit mistaken.

Yet the tribalism has effectively made that 300-1 ratio closer to 1:1. Well, maybe not that extreme but the rotten two-party system is failing us.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#145

Post by mark_l_watson »

Excellent article and one that I wish my friends would read. Recently on a hike I mentioned how upsetting Trudeau’s actions are, and none of my friends had any idea what was happening up in Canada, except someone talked about a few things that I don’t believe are true: truckers were violent, few Canadians supported them, etc. - I think those things are not true.

As other people here have pointed out, cashless society is just asking for brutal government overreach.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#146

Post by moralestapia »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #113
ddingus wrote: post #67

We do, and frankly need to reject the cashless society. Cash is pretty great. I am a fan, and have all the usual, ordinary reasons most people do. Cashless seems like a goal others want, but most people probably don't.

No COVID was the last push. Germs and all that.

I would be greatly surprised if cash were a vector for COVID.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#147

Post by wvenable »

adriand wrote: post #57

I agree that this needs to be taken very seriously. However, the author overstates his case significantly when he writes: > Doing this to someone—a small business owner in BC, a public servant in Winnipeg, a student in Halifax—who made a small donation to support the convoy is a clear abuse of power. However: > The RCMP, banking sector and federal government said Monday that account-freezing powers bestowed under the…

The banks contacted the government to seek advice on what to with these funds before the Emergency Act. They have these funds they know belong to multiple individuals, including the account holder, and don't know what to do with them. Just because 100,000 people dumped money into your account for cause doesn't mean it belongs to you personally.

No individual protestors accounts have been frozen. If you donated to this cause you literally have no idea where your money went. If you participated in the protest and feel entitled to these funds, how would you get them? Freezing the accounts, at this time, is neither pro-protest or anti-protest. The government isn't seizing this money -- it's keeping it from being moved until somebody can figure out who even owns it.

https://financialpost.com/fp-finance/banking/trudeau-gives-b...

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#148

Post by phil21 »

reaperducer wrote: post #86
forty wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also as noted in the article, things like electricity, internet and other utility cannot be paid in cash either here.

Also as noted in the article, things like electricity, internet and other utility cannot be paid in cash either here. In the United States you can. Almost all bills, utility and otherwise, can be paid for in cash at most supermarkets or other money-handling businesses. ("Currency exchanges" in Chicago, or whatever your local equivalent is.) Also, every utility company I've had serving my last five apartments has had…

> Almost all bills, utility and otherwise, can be paid for in cash at most supermarkets or other money-handling businesses.

So long as you are on a post-paid account you don't even need this. If you are on a post-paid plan of any sort, it's a debt. You have the legal right (via the Coinage Act) to pay that debt via cash regardless of any systems they might not have setup to do so.

It's a fun game to play sometimes to remind institutions of this fact, and usually rouses some bored corporate counsel from their slumber to first argue with you, then apologize.

Probably doesn't really help build a great business relationship, however.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#149

Post by AdrianB1 »

pdonis wrote: post #101
ddingus wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can fix that, and it is being addressed. Cash is a great answer to a whole lot of basic commerce, small scale, freedom style, between adults just adulting. The problem IS businesses refusing cash. The public really does not benefit and we have not shown we are able to avoid abusing electronics. One day maybe. Right now? Not a chance. Cash remains necessary and the costs are not crazy enough to warrant all the abus…

> The problem IS businesses refusing cash. The public really does not benefit I benefit quite a lot from not having to use cash. I pay all my bills with credit cards. That means I can do it remotely, taking a few minutes a month, without having to leave my house. Having to pay each bill in person, in cash, would be a huge cost to me in time and effort. And if the companies I'm paying those bills to had to have the pe…

> I benefit quite a lot from not having to use cash.

And you lose nothing by having more options, including cash. Nobody said you need to pay only with cash.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#150

Post by y04nn »

So there may be people that usually don't use cash, that made a small donation for something they believe in (a non violent protest), and are now unable to pay for their food, rent, car gas, medication… All of this without any trial, without being able to defend/explain themself. How is this a democracy?
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