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Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

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Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#371

Post by nikolay »

lostmsu wrote: post #334
nikolay wrote: post #332

So, US is happy. I wonder if Germans would be. Germany and all EU countries are US puppets. I really don't know why EU needs US. To me, the one reason I don't like my own homeland, Bulgaria to be in EU (just like more than half of my compatriots don't according to polls) is the dependence on US. We were part of the Soviet Union, so, we replaced one dependence with yet another, even worse, I would say. Being in NATO,…

Yeah, dependence is bad. Everyone should be growing their own food, and generating their own energy, and making their own smartphones. The basis of your point is not grounded in reality since the dawn of civilization.

Well, why is America dictating Germany that Nord Stream 2 should be cancelled? If you've watched even what publicly was shown on the TV, America is telling Germany what to do - like Germany is highly-dependent on the US somehow! Pathetic!

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#372

Post by yodelshady »

_ph_ wrote: post #58
zx85wes wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been dead for a very long time. It's a carrot that Russia was never going to get. If Scholz is smart (which I doubt) he'll restart/keep open the nuclear power plants and cut taxes on gas/electricity for households to neutralise the price hikes.

Nuclear plants are not a real replacement to gas. First of all, a lot of gas gets used for heating - nuclear isn't useful there. Then it is used for providing flexible power, to ramp up and down as quickly as possible to follow the production of renewables. Only a small fraction of the gas goes into "base load" usage. So the government might look into the nuclear power plants to dampen the price level for electricity…

> a lot of gas gets used for heating - nuclear isn't useful there.

Erm, no, that's just not true. Ironically, the best counter to that is... Russia, which successfully supplies a few million with extremely cheap hot water.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#373

Post by dirtyid »

syki wrote: post #367
dirtyid wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin has been looking to secure western border since always. Why does RU need PRC approval? RU does what's in RU interests, the fact that RU had courtesy to wait until after Olympics is about as much leverage PRC has in the situation. And why does PRC need to punish RU or do anything meaningful if doing nothing is likely more optimal for PRC. The geopolitical calculus is all over the place, no reason to be hasty.

RU actions are against PRC interests in terms of international norms. They are not and I don’t believe Russia would do what it is doing in Ukraine without Chinese approval. The timing of the recent agreement between Russia and China is pretty much proof that Russia has China’s blessing. Since 1960 China has had military incursions against Vietnam, Soviet Union, and India. It has blatantly violated norms regarding the…

They are, why else would PRC stress importance of UK sovereignty in official statements. Because PRC cares about norms not noninterference if it decides to move on TW. Also, why approval and not acquiescence? Russia is not PRC puppet, there aren't comparable political arrangements unlike US and her satraps for PRC to pressure RU.

>Since 1960 China

You basically listed a bunch of events that are consistent with what PRC considers to be domestic issues since the 1960s, i.e. territorial disputes, supporting secessionist forces in TW. Vietnam land war was over security (like Korea), PRC retreated after operations, and ideally PRC would hope RU does as well, hence no recognition of Crimea annexation. CCP does not endorse private companies fish in other countries EEZs. Nor is PRC in violation of UNCLOS norms at UN. Nor do secondary sanctions blocking PRC market which PRC adopted from US toolkit a violation of German sovereignty. Regardless, the point is the spectrum is more than binary approval / disapproval.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#374

Post by gruez »

diimdeep wrote: post #368
gruez wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"The Iron Curtain of the 1940s and ‘50s was ostensibly designed to isolate Russia from Western Europe – to keep out Communist ideology and military penetration. Uhh what? If I remember my history class correctly, it was the east that built the berlin wall and had emigration restrictions, not the other way around. The wikipedia article confirms this. "The term symbolizes the efforts by the Soviet Union (USSR) to bloc…

>The Iron Curtain of the 1940s and ‘50s - here is more as a metaphor. >The Berlin Wall was a guarded concrete barrier that physically and ideologically divided Berlin from 1961 to 1989.

From wikipedia:

>It later became a term for the 7,000-kilometre-long (4,300 mi) physical barrier of fences, walls, minefields, and watchtowers that divided the "east" and "west". The Berlin Wall was also part of this physical barrier.

Regardless of whether you think the term refers to the political/metaphorical barrier or the physical barrier, it seems weird to characterize it as "designed to isolate Russia from Western Europe – to keep out Communist ideology and military penetration", when it was the warsaw pact countries that were erecting physical barriers. It makes as much sense as saying that the Mexico-US border was designed to keep out american "ideology and military penetration", when really it's obviously designed to prevent illegal crossings from Mexico into the US.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#375

Post by rosndo »

vadertemp wrote: post #270
rosndo wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha ha, funny joke. Where are the 100k+ US troops on Ukrainian borders?

US has not deployed to Ukraine because its not in its national interest whereas Russia does have an immediate security concern with NATO expansion to its borders after the end of the cold war. US has deployments all over the world after WWII in order to bully and protect its own interests. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/10/infographic-us-mili...

The idea that Russia with their world ending weapons could be genuinely threatened by NATO expansion is hilarious.

It’s only their own expansion plans which are threatened by NATO.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#376

Post by mechanical_bear »

kbart wrote: post #317
mechanical_bear wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a legitimate concern that NATO would occupy/attack Russian territory?

No. All ex-Soviet countries that joined NATO did that willingly as a way to protect their independence (looking at the examples of ex-Soviet countries that did not, it's clear that was the right decision). The "threat" of NATO invading Russia is bullshit and whataboutism.

Agreed, whole heartedly.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#377

Post by agapon »

stanski wrote: post #335
karpierz wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little more nuanced than "they weren't able to defend their Eastern border". They had to balance between: - Too little force, which would allow the separatists to de-facto control the territories and lead to a Crimea situation. - Too much force, which would lead to a Russia invasion triggered by either: Russians dying in Ukraine (since some Russian soldiers were in the region "on vacation") or conflict on the…

Is it more nuanced though? The moment separatists started taking over Ukrainian territory, they should've attempted to take that back. Whether they were unable to or not willing to, as you suggest, now things are a lot worse. Either way it was a strategic failure, so yes, they did fail to protect their borders even back then.

> The moment separatists started taking over Ukrainian territory, they should've attempted to take that back. Where have you been from June to August of 2014?

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#378

Post by agapon »

busterarm wrote: post #251
karpierz wrote: post #241

Anyone have thoughts on how this all pans out? I think that the only way out is that Ukraine cuts off its arm to save the head. It acknowledges the territories as lost, and consolidates what it has left. But I'm not sure how they do that without: 1. The current leader losing legitimacy, and likely resigning. 2. Opening the door for other parts of Ukraine to split off. 3. Opening the door to Russia to meddle in other…

> I don't see NATO involving itself militarily. If a US soldier dies defending Ukraine, I think that enough people will ask "why are we shedding American blood for something that has nothing to do with us?" Which is why it's been so stupid of the US and the EU to push for Ukraine's inclusion into the EU & NATO. All it has done is provoke Russia, who doesn't want foreign influence right on its borders and Ukraine isn'…

> Which is why it's been so stupid of the US and the EU to push for Ukraine's inclusion into the EU & NATO.

This is an incredibly stupid (and false) thing of you to say. With all due respect and apologies.

As far as we, Ukrainians, see it, we are being encouraged to be "EU worthy" or "NATO worthy", but we are being constantly told that we are years (decades) from joining either.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#379

Post by agapon »

busterarm wrote: post #347
karpierz wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU still has to consider how other nations will react to their policies. To be clear, their policy is "we will not ban nations from joining on the basis that a non-EU nation objects". I think they're aware that this may make some nations unhappy, but it's better than the alternative, which would make it very difficult to ever expand the EU (beyond how difficult it is already). > Just think about how much we fre…

> I agree that the US would panic, but Ukraine didn't strike any deals. They weren't in the process of joining NATO (and likely wouldn't be admitted due to "external territorial disputes") and they weren't in the process of joining the EU. In addition, the EU doesn't put military bases anywhere. This is actually untrue. Ukraine has repeatedly stated their intention to become a NATO member state. It's even written int…

> It's even written into their Constitution.

It's you who is bullshitting here.

That was not in Ukrainian Constitution until Russia invaded and occupied parts of Ukraine. Before that Ukraine declared itself as a completely neutral state relying entirely on the Budapest Guarantees.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#380

Post by nix23 »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #236
nix23 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neutral and amoral bites each other. Germany wants to be the leader of europe...yet no one else wants that....understandably.

Germany politicians desperately don't want to be the leaders of anything. Given the country's GDP, tech prowess and population, they could be a military and espionage powerhouse far exceeding the UK or France, even rivaling Russia; but historical and political reasons make them tread softly and prefer throwing money at problems (e.g. paying off other countries to join the EU through the CAP, or sending FDI or aid to…

> Germany politicians desperately don't want to be the leaders of anything.

Oh look where the corrupt Flinten-Uschi sits:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Comm...

https://www.politico.eu/article/ursula-von-der-leyen-biograp...

And yes they even give free submarines to Israel and help the NSA to spy on other European country's....what a lovely nation.

>rather than to bully countries

Greece want's to have a word with you then.

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