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Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

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Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#101

Post by BurningPenguin »

bungle wrote: post #78
_ph_ wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear plants are not a real replacement to gas. First of all, a lot of gas gets used for heating - nuclear isn't useful there. Then it is used for providing flexible power, to ramp up and down as quickly as possible to follow the production of renewables. Only a small fraction of the gas goes into "base load" usage. So the government might look into the nuclear power plants to dampen the price level for electricity…

> First of all, a lot of gas gets used for heating - nuclear isn't useful there All electricity basically turns to heat at some point. So why not?

Maybe because 90%* of all houses need to be refitted.

(*estimated number out of thin air, but yes majority is gas or oil)

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#102

Post by cinntaile »

_ph_ wrote: post #92
bungle wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First of all, a lot of gas gets used for heating - nuclear isn't useful there All electricity basically turns to heat at some point. So why not?

Yes, of course you can heat with electricity - and using heat pumps this is definitely the future. However, the amount of nuclear available would make only a small difference here. It should be much easier to just buy gas internationally and push forward with renewables.

You can also use the heat directly (district heating) without having to go to electricity and back. This limits the electricity output efficiency but increases the overall efficiency of the plant. It requires changes to the turbines and the buildout of a district heating system though.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#103

Post by nix23 »

danjac wrote: post #79

Germany's problem is that it really wants to be Switzerland - rich, neutral, outwardly virtuous yet totally amoral. Unfortunately its history and geography make that impossible.

Neutral and amoral bites each other. Germany wants to be the leader of europe...yet no one else wants that....understandably.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#104

Post by gjsman-1000 »

major505 wrote: post #81
Loic wrote: post #53

My personal opinion: All this Ukraine stuff is also supported by China. I bet they are ready to buy Russian oil and gas to compensate even if this costs them more than getting them from the open market. Why? Because this is a wonderful test drive to check how the West (sorry for the approximation) is reacting to a country theoretically supported by the West being invaded by another one. For me, the next one on the li…

I don't think china is too happy about this separatist support since this sets a precedent for territories they consider separatists like Taiwan.

Yes... and no. These are separatists who are operating with the support of Russia, and are (obviously) puppet states for Russia now that Russia is going to be sending "peacekeeping forces" within their territory.

I don't think China would have any objection to separatists of any nation who wanted to spread communism and get Chinese backing. Actually, the fact that there aren't Taiwanese separatists for China is probably a disappointment.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#105

Post by scotty79 »

likecarter wrote: post #73
scotty79 wrote: post #48

That's dumb. What they should do instead is tax the gas that will flow through North Stream 2 to be as expensive as the one going through other routes and transfer this tax directly to Ukraine budget as aid let's say for the next 30 years, irrevocably. And possibly partially to Poland because it has very similar concerns but to a lesser degree than Ukraine.

I don’t think imposing a complicated tax structure is very compromising or intimidating towards Russia.

It should be extremely simple tax structure.

It's not about intimidation.

Nord Stream 2 intention was to make it way more profitable than other routes so Putin can freely mess with countries those other routes go through.

By firmly taxing whatever comes out of NS2 you nullify it's attractiveness for consumers.

And giving Ukraine this much money would strengthen it economically so they can adavance faster towards western standards of living and western culture, further from Russia influence.

Losing two provinces that are basically huge coal mine populated with people speaking other language is not that painful if you can progress towards western knowledge based economies fast.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#106

Post by tomp »

major505 wrote: post #81
Loic wrote: post #53

My personal opinion: All this Ukraine stuff is also supported by China. I bet they are ready to buy Russian oil and gas to compensate even if this costs them more than getting them from the open market. Why? Because this is a wonderful test drive to check how the West (sorry for the approximation) is reacting to a country theoretically supported by the West being invaded by another one. For me, the next one on the li…

I don't think china is too happy about this separatist support since this sets a precedent for territories they consider separatists like Taiwan.

I really don’t understand this logic.

Or rather, it’s easy to turn it around.

Russia’s claim is basically, “this is ethnically Russian population speaking Russian”. That’s exactly the same claim that China could make about Taiwan.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#107

Post by _ph_ »

a0-prw wrote: post #20

The accreditation process was already halted, so nothing new has happened. Nord Stream 2 will eventually deliver cheap gas to Germany. This is just political theatre. Wait till Russia stops sending gas through Ukraine and paying Ukraine billions for the privilege (a move that can be easily justified from the Russian side as 'counter sanctions'). Then you'll hear the Germans scream XD

One of the the connections to Russia that kept giving diplomacy a base is, that Russia always was a reliable supplier with gas, as was the Sovjet Union even during the cold war. Equally, Europe is a good customer. Fundamentally such trade is good for both sides.

Nord Stream 2 was strictly speaking never needed, a lot consider it rather a strategy of Russia to be able to cut off Ukraine without severing their trade with Germany. As a consequence, a lot of people in Germany considered North Stream 2 a strategic mistake.

Putin already was playing with the gas supply as the signed contracts were fulfilled, but no extra gas was offered, even if Russia could have made some nice profits, unless North Stream 2 became operational.

Cutting gas below the existing contracts would be a whole different step of escalation.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#108

Post by ianai »

credit_guy wrote: post #45

Here's some quick numbers I just googled to understand the big picture. This pipeline has an annual capacity of 55 billion cubic meters. It's the same capacity as the Nord Stream 1, which is already in operation. If Germany was truly meaning business, they'd stop Nord Stream 1 the moment Russian boots enter Ukrainian territory. But let's leave that aside. 55 billion cubic meters translate to about 0.6 billion MWh. Th…

More informative might be: some price sensitivities around LNG, and how changing supply may affect price.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#109

Post by hajile »

credit_guy wrote: post #45

Here's some quick numbers I just googled to understand the big picture. This pipeline has an annual capacity of 55 billion cubic meters. It's the same capacity as the Nord Stream 1, which is already in operation. If Germany was truly meaning business, they'd stop Nord Stream 1 the moment Russian boots enter Ukrainian territory. But let's leave that aside. 55 billion cubic meters translate to about 0.6 billion MWh. Th…

Nordstream 2 has sanctions against it in the US and has for several years now. Work on the pipeline stopped an hour or two before they were signed into law (by the allegedly pro-Russia Trump).

Like Biden always does, he just ignored the bi-partisan sanctions passed by congress because it'll be too late by the time the courts get done (Biden subverting the system to help Russia get what they want)

This is important because Ukraine said quite a while ago that sanctions of Nordstream 2 would go a long way toward preventing war[0]

Meanwhile, the Democrats spent a morning last week waxing eloquent about the evil of the filibuster only to use the filibuster that same day to stop a bi-partisan set of Nordstream 2 sanctions from passing because it was just under the requisite 60 votes.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/ukraine-us-not-too-l...

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#110

Post by Helmut10001 »

Germany has run on 60% Wind power alone in January and February so far, even exported energy to France (because their nuclear power is in bad shape) and Poland (coal power plants are just too expensive). Just another motivation to get rid of the old power sources as soon as possible. North Stream 2 never made sense.
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