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Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

vaghetti.dev

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Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#581

Post by pdimitar »

therealdrag0 wrote: post #580
pdimitar wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem. Anecdotally, for many programmers I spoke with over a 20 years of career, it's not "can be used as passive aggressive bullying sometimes"; it's "almost always". :(

I’ve never seen bullying in stand-up? So I’m skeptical of this “almost always”. In fact many of the teams I’ve working are fine with people skipping standup if they have any reason to. Currently I skip like half of my teams standups.

Everywhere I've been, ever, stand-ups weren't optional.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#582

Post by therealdrag0 »

Aeolun wrote: post #499
edanm wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I'm not defending every single workplace here. Obviously some developers aren't treated well, and in those cases, they should find another job. I was commenting on the fairly blanket statement made. But the way the conversation should go isn't the developer deciding when refactoring should happen. It's the developer giving an analysis of the cost and benefit of a refactoring (it will take X time, but will save…

> It's the developer giving an analysis of the cost and benefit of a refactoring (it will take X time, but will save Y work in the future). I think I just fundamentally disagree that this is the managers job. He tells me what needs doing, and I get that done as soon as possible within a given block of time (mostly sprints, so two weeks). They should be able to trust me to refactor as necessary within that block.

Well of course you can. But that sounds like a less powerful position. Being able to refactor a scope that can fit into a sprint without communicating it is (should be) like a non issue. If you’re manager cares, that’s too bad and sad. Personally no where I’ve worked has this been unacceptable or questionable. Hoping that’s the norm, but maybe not.

I think the more interesting scenario is large tech debts that take real time, like the change itself is weeks, or months. These need to be justified and planned and coordinated with managers.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#583

Post by johny115 »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #176

I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all. We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. If anyone has read Developer Hegemony , I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, a…

"I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all."

Devs might have leverage. But in terms of actually contributing to the success of their company, the data seems to suggest otherwise, as far as their importance is involved.

It used to be all about technical talent and product excellence. But dive deeper into reasons why tech companies fail today, and you will see all points to Marketing. Not really in sense of Advertising/Acquisition, but Marketing and Business Strategy as whole. Research, Positioning, Model, Pricing, etc..

Basically more than half startups fail because they are building wrong product for wrong market (Marketing). Less than 10% companies fail because of issues with the tech side. I am not saying devs are not important and that there aren't big differences in the quality and speed of their work, but wouldn't go as far as claiming some sort of god-like status when devs are not really where the future of the business is decided (unless it's some extremely unique technology involving product, most aren't). As Brian Balfour says, the game has changed, it's all about distribution now.

That being said, I wouldn't tell a dev how should their do their job. I can only lead them in terms of what we should be working on, what part of product or what feature, but how exactly to code it? Well that's of course up to them. We don't really micromanage in our company. We just all sync on priorities and then trust each other to execute as per everyone's best judgment. But yeah, we're a tiny company.

That in a sense could be an advice, go work for a startup. Corporate micromanagement is a choice. To be honest, in a larger organization, I would be probably micromanaged too, even as a non-dev, and I would fu*king hate it. Don't think devs are special in this. Not like managers understand Growth and Product work either.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#584

Post by cudgy »

herodoturtle wrote: post #579
cudgy wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just seems highly unlikely that you are having 10 minute meetings while accomplishing anything beyond the usual small chit chat and banter that almost all social interactions require. It takes ten minutes alone to just gather a group of people, look at each other, and say hello.

I can understand why you’d think that. If I may challenge your idea: what you describe only applies to teams that don’t meet often. My team has been doing this daily standup for years. Those 10 minutes are succinct - and effective. We save the chit chat (of which there’s plenty) for our lunch breaks and after hours. I wouldn’t blame someone for doubting it’s possible. But yeah, in our case, it just works.

Perhaps you work in a culture that does not have this limitation, but, in the US (a country often criticized for being work-centric), a 10 minute meeting that accomplishes anything meaningful at all is virtually impossible. In fact, the more often people meet, the more banter that crops up.

Anyway, you have something special at your company that I’ve never seen. Cherish it.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#585

Post by therealdrag0 »

pdimitar wrote: post #581
therealdrag0 wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve never seen bullying in stand-up? So I’m skeptical of this “almost always”. In fact many of the teams I’ve working are fine with people skipping standup if they have any reason to. Currently I skip like half of my teams standups.

Everywhere I've been, ever, stand-ups weren't optional.

That’s interesting. I’ve run into this a lot online. Its obvious in retrospect but often taken for granted that people can have such diverse experiences that really influence our opinions and views of the world.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#586

Post by jjav »

moritonal wrote: post #253
LAC-Tech wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're definitely better at non-developers at software development. Yet we literally have outside people dictating to us when they think it's appropriate for refactoring to happen. Or when it's time to update a dependency. This is a lot different from than "no on besides them can have any insight on timelines, or budget, on which features are or aren't important.". I definitely value the input of other profess…

Perspective might be key here. "Yet we literally have outside people dictating to _you_ when they think it's appropriate for refactoring to happen. Or when it's time to update a dependency." You work in a place where this happens. You could not.

> You work in a place where this happens. You could not.

You could, if lucky, but such sane places are becoming more and more rare.

In the 90s (and probably earlier but I don't know) developers were viewed much more highly than now in all aspects except salary. There was a lot of autonomy and authority, the role was respected as a professional. With the rise of agile in the last ~15 years it has been transformed into a low-authority replaceable-cogs type of job, to be micromanaged by everyone else involved in the product. Salaries have gone through the roof though, so I guess that's the tradeoff.

Maybe there are engineering-oriented companies still with the 90s culture?

(If anyone knows of any such companies, please share, I'll head over to interview there.)

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#587

Post by smaddox »

lelanthran wrote: post #258
LAC-Tech wrote: post #176

I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all. We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. If anyone has read Developer Hegemony , I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, a…

> We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. This is actually quite interesting as I was just talking to a few other professionals about this in a social setting. I was the only one in software development. I mentioned how stand-ups work briefl…

> No lawyer, accountant, doctor, engineer, scientist or other professional stands up each day to report to their peers on their progress.

This just isn't true. Semiconductor process engineers and manufacturing technicians have stand-ups twice a day. I'm sure most if not all of those other professions have ~daily alignment meetings as well.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#588

Post by OJFord »

q-base wrote: post #364
OJFord wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the height of day rates affect it? (Honest question.)

Your willingness to try new ways is probably inverse proportional to your current wage.

Ah, sure, fair enough. Thanks.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#589

Post by snowwrestler »

Jensson wrote: post #421
snowwrestler wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not hard to make a living writing code. That’s why people with a high school education can do it. Obviously it’s not for everyone, but it’s also not reserved for a select few who have had a life-long passion for messing with computers. Look at the medical profession where there are tiers of expertise / earnings. Not everyone can be a neurosurgeon, obviously. But many people can make good livings. And the profess…

> It’s not hard to make a living writing code. That’s why people with a high school education can do it. Its not hard finishing college, that's why people with a high school education can do it. Having a high school education doesn't tell you how smart the person is. Maybe they would easily finish college if they tried?

I agree that it is not hard to finish college.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#590

Post by blindmute »

jvolkman wrote: post #572
blindmute wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jetbrains has one IDE (IDEA Ultimate) and redistributes it with various built in plugins for cheaper licensing and marketing. If you get the more expensive Ultimate, it has support for all languages via the same plugins.

As far as I know there is not a way to install CLion's C/CPP support as a plugin in Ultimate.

True, I was wrong. Ultimate supports everything except C stuff (CLion) and .NET (Rider), so there's three. I wonder why that is? Legacy tech debt maybe?
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