Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

vaghetti.dev

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

571–580 of 611 posts

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#571

Post by Tagbert »

blindmute wrote: post #540
jghn wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The part of standup identifying blockers is to figure out when someone doesn't realize their blocked and/or they're spinning their tires a bit. If someone is blocked they should reach out immediately. Instead, standups provide the team the ability to identify roadblocks the developer might not realize. Perhaps you're working on something and I've been down that path before, and know your solution won't work for reaso…

Has this ever actually happened though?

Frequently, especially with junior developers.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#572

Post by jvolkman »

blindmute wrote: post #548
gravypod wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> our tooling is so effing slow it needs a 1000x improvement. not in how fast we can write code, just to compile and test the damn stuff Not just that. Why do we have 30 tools for 30 programming languages. JetBrains has one IDE per language (approximately). What happens when I have a project with two languages? It is a mess. Don't get me started about build systems. Something like Bazel is greatly needed which would…

Jetbrains has one IDE (IDEA Ultimate) and redistributes it with various built in plugins for cheaper licensing and marketing. If you get the more expensive Ultimate, it has support for all languages via the same plugins.

As far as I know there is not a way to install CLion's C/CPP support as a plugin in Ultimate.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#573

Post by baq »

meowzero wrote: post #504
baq wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's only a status meeting for management if management insists on being there. kick them out.

I've been in teams with just developers, being siloed from non-programmers, with a technical manager. It still becomes a status meeting. We can tell them DSU aren't supposed to be status meeting, but it still devolves into one.

Part of the process is making sure the process works, i.e. achieves objectives. This sounds like such reviews were never done in those teams.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#574

Post by eli_gottlieb »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #176

I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all. We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. If anyone has read Developer Hegemony , I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, a…

>If anyone has read Developer Hegemony, I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, and turn bosses into customers. Though that does require us to think of ourselves as professionals not nerds who are too smart for business.

I own a copy of Democracy at Work and know there are a number of software and IT cooperatives out there...

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#575

Post by cudgy »

herodoturtle wrote: post #372
dustinmoris wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead it's there to get everyone on the same page. How do you get everyone on the same page if you cannot ask questions? This whole standup theatre is complete bullshit. It's true it's a waste of time. You say it's only meant to be a quick "status update" 10 minute meeting. What is the point of that if then asking questions is not allowed? If it is allowed then it's true though that for the majority of listeners…

> How do you get everyone on the same page if you cannot ask questions? Not sure why you're asking me this. I welcome questions in standups. And if a question warrants a deeper one-on-one chat, then at least everyone knows an issue has been raised (but often someone on the team knows the answer straight away). They hardly take up time. I suspect we have radically different experiences of standup meetings, hence the p…

It just seems highly unlikely that you are having 10 minute meetings while accomplishing anything beyond the usual small chit chat and banter that almost all social interactions require. It takes ten minutes alone to just gather a group of people, look at each other, and say hello.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#576

Post by sdepablos »

rightbyte wrote: post #462
codegrappler wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was coming here to say this. Every time a more sophisticated system has been built to replace a simpler one, it requires MORE programmers, not less.

Ye. I think there is way to much "automation" nowadays. It is like all these business systems corparations use. They would probably be better off with some secretaries with typewriters sending internal paper mail. Systems that try to automate too much are too rigid to use in a sane way. The nice thing with a no computer system, is that if you want to do something, just do it. An analogue would be writing math notatio…

Well, I think that the demand of developers is not so much because of the increase complexity of systems but because a lot of companies think they need developers, when they only need technology, and a lot other think than just adding more devs is the solution (the hyperinefficiency of the hipergrowth companies is at this point legendary, as the guy earning $1.5M/y getting and losing - but getting paid nonetheless - multiple tech jobs at the same time proved)

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#577

Post by [deleted] »

Apocryphon wrote: post #544
rajin444 wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average age of death for Covid is higher than the average life expectancy. You’re going to have a hard time convincing people that is a true crisis.

What about the state of the health care system? Hospital occupancy?

[deleted]

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#578

Post by therealdrag0 »

blindmute wrote: post #529
Dave3of5 wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest I would just throw SCRUM into the trash if I could I think it's garbage but following some not quite SCRUM method which is what most companies do is actually insane. The whole process becomes a micromanagers wet dream.

I used to work at a company where the standup meeting was once per week, and we would pre write everything in a shared doc. The meeting was then just silently reading, only saying something if necessary. A great place of sanity, that was.

For office work that sounds great. For remote working don’t mind burning 20 min to see my coworkers faces and chat 2-3 times a week.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#579

Post by herodoturtle »

cudgy wrote: post #575
herodoturtle wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you get everyone on the same page if you cannot ask questions? Not sure why you're asking me this. I welcome questions in standups. And if a question warrants a deeper one-on-one chat, then at least everyone knows an issue has been raised (but often someone on the team knows the answer straight away). They hardly take up time. I suspect we have radically different experiences of standup meetings, hence the p…

It just seems highly unlikely that you are having 10 minute meetings while accomplishing anything beyond the usual small chit chat and banter that almost all social interactions require. It takes ten minutes alone to just gather a group of people, look at each other, and say hello.

I can understand why you’d think that.

If I may challenge your idea: what you describe only applies to teams that don’t meet often.

My team has been doing this daily standup for years. Those 10 minutes are succinct - and effective. We save the chit chat (of which there’s plenty) for our lunch breaks and after hours.

I wouldn’t blame someone for doubting it’s possible. But yeah, in our case, it just works.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#580

Post by therealdrag0 »

pdimitar wrote: post #318
ggm wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely sure this is more than a matter of degree. I liked most of your point but I think you devalue aspects of this mode of work discussion. It's important to discuss work and holding yourself to account in a shared endeavour is not of itself bad. I have little doubt it's also used as passive aggressive bullying sometimes.

That's the problem. Anecdotally, for many programmers I spoke with over a 20 years of career, it's not "can be used as passive aggressive bullying sometimes"; it's "almost always". :(

I’ve never seen bullying in stand-up? So I’m skeptical of this “almost always”.

In fact many of the teams I’ve working are fine with people skipping standup if they have any reason to. Currently I skip like half of my teams standups.

Post reply on HN