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I was wrong, we need crypto

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Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#151

Post by woodruffw »

0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #123
HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #81

> the Canadian prime minister imposed martial law on the protestors No, he didn’t.

Semantics aside - the Act does allow for the suspension of civil liberties that should be troubling to everyone. The ability for a government to unilaterally lock people out of their bank accounts without a court order or any form of recourse is virtually unprecedented in Western society. Likewise, retroactively labelling a behaviour as a crime, then punishing individuals for it is explicitly against the Canadian Cha…

When a conversation starts with accusations of "martial law," you don't get to wiggle out of that by wringing over "semantics": "martial law" means something specific, and using it in the first place belies either an incorrect understanding or a dishonest attempt to portray the Canadian government's actions in terms that nobody can disagree with.

> The ability for a government to unilaterally lock people out of their bank accounts without a court order or any form of recourse is virtually unprecedented in Western society.

No, it isn't. The US uses SARs[1] on a daily basis, and has since the passing of the Bank Secrecy Act in the 1970s. There is virtually no recourse to a SAR levied against your account: virtually every bank in the US will simply close your account and refuse to disclose any further information.

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#152

Post by arcticbull »

guilhas wrote: post #149
arcticbull wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No he didn't either way, because that's not what the Emergencies Act is or does. [1, 2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergencies_Act [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iPsgfuum2c

So what do you call closing people bank accounts because they donated 50$ to a protest? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10535361/Canadian-M...

Not to a protest, to an unlawful occupation of the capital. I'm 100% behind that. I'm sorry. And so are over 2/3 of Canadians. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[edit] I would be just as glib about someone who donated $50 to Hezbollah and got their accounts shut down.

[edit2] Trudeau has a minority government, and minority governments both require another party to prop them up - and have an average tenure of 1 year and 140 days. It's been 154 days already. There will be an election in less than a year, on average. We have courts, we have ballot boxes. Use them.

[edit3] I say this as someone who did not vote for the Liberals, and is open to revisiting restrictions.

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#153

Post by CodeGlitch »

feoren wrote: post #97
CodeGlitch wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and the majority don't want these Nazi flag waving idiots distrupting their lives. Slightly off topic but the inconsistent treatment/reporting of these protestors and BLM is what gets me. BLM protestors flying "antifa" flags (let's be honest Marxists) are just as bad as Nazis in my book - seriously misled people with unworkable ideas about how the world should be run. Anyway if you're coming down hard on protestors…

> BLM protestors flying "antifa" flags ... are just as bad as Nazis Let's be clear about what you're saying: people who are vehemently opposed to Nazis are just as bad as Nazis. This is the definition of "fake centrism" or (sarcastically) "enlightened centrism". You're really saying that a new flag created to express opposition to Nazis, fascism, authoritarianism, and genocide is as bad as a flag that has been used f…

You're right in that comparing modern antifa against 1940s Nazis, but I was comparing the modern incarnations of both (which wasn't clear in my post). As had been mentioned, the actions of both groups in current times is what I meant.

You've actually brought up a good point, with the overuse of the term "Nazi" it's hard to have a meaningful conversation about the far right and their deeply unpleasant beliefs. Simply calling them Nazis is lazy and unhelpful.

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#154

Post by arcticbull »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #150
arcticbull wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did someone say otherwise? I will say otherwise. We do not need crypto.

The only reason crypto exists is because others needs don't match yours. The desire and *idea* behind crypto is reasonable. It's just that the implementation falls way short of the idea.

The whole idea behind a public ledger of transactions and balances when you're trying to push back against a totalitarian government is nonsense. If you're putting criminal or fringe transactions on the ledger, then handing the ledger to the government saying "I bet you can't figure this out!" You're not making transactions, you're making prosecution futures.

If someone tried to use Bitcoin to evade the PRC I'd say they had a death wish.

Remember, you're not leveraging crypto promises against current deanonymization software, you're using it against all future deanonymization software. That's such a bad idea I can't even.

The only reason it's at all worked in Western democracies is because the anarchocapitalists are "pushing back" against a government that either tolerates or supports them. Worse, when they use the technology against Western democracies their actions are anti-Democratic. They're hoping the minority can overturn the lawful actions of the majority instead of using the courts or electoral processes.

[edit] The folks who truly advocate crypto as a tool to push back against a totalitarian government are the kind of people who read 75% of 1984, closed the book, and assume Winston went home to have a sip of Victory Gin and lived happily ever after.

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#155

Post by koolba »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #141
lowkey wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The freezing via the EMA would thaw after the EMA expires in a few days. The PM is on the record admitting he is considering extending the Emergency Measures Act, potentially for months. His Minister of Finance has already declared she now plans to make some of the financial controls permanent. Whether or not you believe these measures to be appropriate, it is incorrect to claim they will expire in the next few day…

The EMA can only be applied for a maximum of 30 days. If he tries to reapply it, he's going to have a lot of trouble getting NDP support to do so.

Governors in the USA have consistently extended emergency orders continuously since the pandemic began.

It’s not unreasonable to expect power to not easily be relinquished.

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#156

Post by bb88 »

colpabar wrote: post #82
gorwell wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One idiot or provocateur in a sea of tens of thousands does not override the 99%. That's an absurd, lazy smear. What this episode makes clear is that many people actually love authoritarianism as long as the actions of the state in the moment appear to align with their own ideology. Next time it won't, which is why it must be resisted on a principled basis. This precedent being set is a dictator's dream come true and…

> Next time it won't Sadly, it most likely will. The left I used to know wouldn't be caught dead cheering on the coordination between federal government and private businesses/banks to deny people the ability to organize and protest. But here we are, and there we'll be when the government decides to label whatever the next movement is as a "threat to democracy."

Let's lean into this.

> to organize and protest.

All the sit-ins in the past 60 years of protesting, ended up in people being arrested. And fines (as well as imprisonment) were levied against the arrested protesters for disruption of government operations and services.

Further these days, often protesters go in expecting to be arrested. Activists will often seek people who aren't afraid of being arrested.

If you cause damage during the protest, you really can't whine about the punishment.

> The left I used to know wouldn't be caught dead cheering on the coordination between federal government...

Oh I think Abbie Hoffman's supporters would still hate the FBI COINTELPRO today. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO) Hoover's FBI more or less got away with infiltration and assassination because the enemy was "stinking hippies" or "terrorists".

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#157

Post by MattRix »

0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #123
HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #81

> the Canadian prime minister imposed martial law on the protestors No, he didn’t.

Semantics aside - the Act does allow for the suspension of civil liberties that should be troubling to everyone. The ability for a government to unilaterally lock people out of their bank accounts without a court order or any form of recourse is virtually unprecedented in Western society. Likewise, retroactively labelling a behaviour as a crime, then punishing individuals for it is explicitly against the Canadian Cha…

“Locking people out of their bank accounts is severely restricting their ability to buy essential goods such as food, shelter, transportation, etc.”

From what I saw, the language specifically allows them to continue using their account for regular daily purchases (food, etc).

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#158

Post by drewcoo »

colpabar wrote: post #82
gorwell wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One idiot or provocateur in a sea of tens of thousands does not override the 99%. That's an absurd, lazy smear. What this episode makes clear is that many people actually love authoritarianism as long as the actions of the state in the moment appear to align with their own ideology. Next time it won't, which is why it must be resisted on a principled basis. This precedent being set is a dictator's dream come true and…

> Next time it won't Sadly, it most likely will. The left I used to know wouldn't be caught dead cheering on the coordination between federal government and private businesses/banks to deny people the ability to organize and protest. But here we are, and there we'll be when the government decides to label whatever the next movement is as a "threat to democracy."

The left you used to know rightly deemed that fascism. Before everyone on the neu-left started painting all of their "enemies" with the term, that is.

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#159

Post by woodruffw »

Imnimo wrote: post #138

Okay, but crypto already existed when all this transpired. If crypto is such a good idea and would prevent these problems, why didn't they just use it?

Excellent question.

The post also begs the question: does DHH really think that people in Canada are performing everyday transactions in cryptocurrencies? Donations in those forms would almost certainly be liquidated immediately, into ordinary banking accounts.

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#160

Post by woodruffw »

koolba wrote: post #155
bryanlarsen wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EMA can only be applied for a maximum of 30 days. If he tries to reapply it, he's going to have a lot of trouble getting NDP support to do so.

Governors in the USA have consistently extended emergency orders continuously since the pandemic began. It’s not unreasonable to expect power to not easily be relinquished.

"Governors in the USA" are not subjects of the Canadian government, and there's no particularly valuable conclusion to be drawn from the structure and legal backing of emergency orders in the US in this circumstance.
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