Live data from Hacker News

Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

chromium.woolyss.com

501–510 of 902 posts

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think installing cameras on your own property is stalking? Putting aside that this is legal nonsense, are you saying that the millions of private retail stores, offices, and houses that install security cameras are actually stalking and the majority of citizens that visit grocery stores are stalking victims? I mean, maybe you do believe that, but it's a little ridiculous to freak out over something that most peop…

Individual businesses aren’t stalking anyone if their CCTVs are watching out for themselves. But as soon as there is a centralized company offering the service and gobbling all the data, and that company acts like Google does with regards to web tracking, then it’d be in some sense no better than stalking (or even worse, stalking at scale). If it only obtains the data to provide you the service of knowing who comes i…

Like ADT? Like a lot of security companies that offer monitoring solutions on behalf of clients, especially smaller businesses and individual homeowners?

"gobbling all the data" is vaguely scary while being totally meaningless. GTM data is fully managed by the client, Google contractually does not randomly spy on it. Many businesses would argue that they do delete user data after they don't need it anymore, but analytics is useful and therefore necessary for a fairly long time (many platforms have natural retention limits, usually a few years). Google themselves deletes user data on their first party products after 18 months by default (referring to things like Web & App activity and Location history) and users can set it as low as 3 months, approximately the same amount of time as security footage.

Edited to correct a number and remove some snark

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#502
> As we have seen, Google does not explain ( https://developers.google.com/tag-manager/serverside/custom-... ) the reason for creating a subdomain of the website for its "proxy" server:

> > The default server-side tagging deployment is hosted on an App Engine domain. We recommend that you modify the deployment to use a subdomain of your website instead.

The reason is simple: it creates a denial of service attack on DNS block lists used by things like Pi-Hole and NextDNS. Sure, Google knows that some of the subdomains will be blocked for some block lists... but the vast majority won't be blocked on the vast majority of block lists.

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#503
post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before the whole brexit issue, even most ardent EU supporters would admit that the institution was terribly dysfunctional and would need to be reinvented to survive the next few decades. The Brexit debate seems to have polarised the whole issue into either you hate the EU and everything it stands for, or you think the EU is perfect and if it wasn't for these damn national governments then we could live in utopia. Unf…

> even most ardent EU supporters would admit that the institution was terribly dysfunctional That's a mischaracterization. "Most" would have accepted that there was (and is) room for improvement, but "terribly disfunctional" is an extreme term. The view that the whole institution had to be reinvented has always been a very English idea, based on the fact that some key policies (like agricultural support) benefited ot…

> The view that the whole institution had to be reinvented has always been a very English idea, based on the fact that some key policies (like agricultural support) benefited other countries over Britain.

Most of the important discussions about EU are not held in English. I think a good part of the negative talk about EU in the English speaking sphere comes from English (Who have different needs than continental, or eastern Europe) talking with Americans (Who understand the EU even less).

A lot of the moderate, compromise analyzing discussions will not be perceptible in English, because it will be held in French, German, Italian, Spanish, etc...

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#504
post #25

God damn... this is it, this is the end-game. There's no way to fight this unless you customize and maintain blocking scripts for each individual website. Yes, websites could always have done this, but the REST (CDN-bypassing) requests' cost and the manual maintenance for the telemetry endpoints and storage was an impediment that Google just gives them a drop-in solution for :( I think Google is happy to eat some of…

Just block Google tag manager itself. Gets two birds stoned at the same time.

Yup, overwrite its API on the page

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#505
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about the parent poster, but I am here mostly for the comments, and rarely visit the linked content.

Doesn't exactly this behavior create echo chambers and lead to polarization?

Which behaviour would that be? The "reading only the comments, not the article"? I don't see how reading creates an echo chamber.

What creates an echo chamber is if all the posts are similar or otherwise in agreement with each other. Those threads make for boring reading and I tend to only scan them for less boring content (yes, that means I read the context surrounding greyed-out comments more than the rest). The threads where people discuss various aspects and experiences is what I come here for.

(full disclosure, I mostly read the comments before even opening the article. I only read the article if there's a high-quality comment thread about some details in the article, or if multiple commenters state that it's a great article. And I tend to upvote an article based on the quality of the comments, not just the article itself).

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#506
post #228

Crazy how evil Google is. Just wow. Since this runs entirely on the domain of the website, it can easily ignore your privacy rights, with Google more or less washing their hands clean of it. Indeed, if we take blocking trackers as expression of consent, the only possible reason this exists at all is to illegally circumvent privacy preferences. In other words, if you work for Google, you are literally working for a cr…

Google explains the purpose of server-side tagging here: https://developers.google.com/tag-platform/tag-manager/serve...

The main benefits are performance and security (performance because the tagging can be online with other resource requests, so user agents aren't pausing on additional requests to third-party resources).

This system is giving site owners a fancy way to do analytics they could build into their own server. Hardly evil as long as it's disclosed and managed in a GDPR-compliant fashion.

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#507
post #228

Crazy how evil Google is. Just wow. Since this runs entirely on the domain of the website, it can easily ignore your privacy rights, with Google more or less washing their hands clean of it. Indeed, if we take blocking trackers as expression of consent, the only possible reason this exists at all is to illegally circumvent privacy preferences. In other words, if you work for Google, you are literally working for a cr…

> Crazy how evil Google is.

And the even worse evil are the website owners who betray their own users by placing third-party trackers on their own sites.

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#508
post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this crazy? Server administrators could have done, and have done anything on their side of the code. Nothing changed on this front since the invention of the HTTP request.

What's crazy is how openly anti-individual Google is. They explicitly and aggressively facilitate practices that virtually every single person is against.

... in the tech-commentary echo chamber, perhaps.

The outside world is more apathetic than hostile to it.

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#509
post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Default configurations of logging on most servers is illegal now under GDPR since it saves IP addresses.

This pops up regularly, but AFAIK it's not correct. The law is much more fine grained than the USA PII concept. IP addresses are only personal data (PD) if you are capable of using them as identification mechanism. If you don't they are not. This also means that something that is not PD for you, can become PD when you give it to someone else. Or that 2 items which are not PD themselves, become PD when you combine the…

Incorrect. In the "Breyer" ruling[0] the highest European court concluded that dynamic IP addresses are PII (not just personal data, and not just data), as there is an abstract risk that combining IP addresses with other data can lead to identification of a user. The ruling explicitly said that the mere risk of such an identification is enough, not that such an identification has to actually happen.

Subsequent rulings by many courts have found that all IP addresses are PII, for various reasons, such as "static" IP addresses bear the same risk of indirect identification, and there is no reliable way to distinguish between "dynamic" and "static" addresses anyway.

The recent German ruling that Google Fonts violates the GDPR just by transmitting an IP to google (by making the web browser fetch a resource from a google server) hammered home this point, citing the EU ruling again[0].

This is different to e.g. of a streaming provider keeping a history of songs you played. This data is personal data, but it is not personally identifiable data as this history alone cannot be used to identify a person. However, if this history has some kind of identifier attached that links back to account information or an IP address, that identifier would be PII, as this identifier could be used to indirectly identify a person.

[0] https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf;?text=&d...

[1] https://rewis.io/urteile/urteil/lhm-20-01-2022-3-o-1749320/

Die dynamische IP-Adresse stellt für einen Webseitenbetreiber ein personenbezogenes Datum dar, denn der Webseitenbetreiber verfügt abstrakt über rechtliche Mittel, die vernünftigerweise eingesetzt werden könnten, um mithilfe Dritter, und zwar der zuständigen Behörde und des Internetzugangsanbieters, die betreffende Person anhand der gespeicherten IP-Adressen bestimmen zu lassen (BGH, Urteil vom 16.05.2017 - VI ZR 135/13)[2].

Translated, best to my abilities:

The dynamic IP address is to a web site operator a piece of personally identifiable data, because the web site operator abstractly has legal means, which could be reasonably used, with the help of third parties, namely the the responsible authority and the internet service provider, to identify the person in question with the use of the stored IP address (BGH, ruling from the 16th of May 2017, VI ZR 135/13)[2]

[2] The BGH ruling quoted is the "Breyer" ruling again, just at the German national level instead of the EU level. The Bundesgerichtshof (BGH, highest German court of ordinary law) asked the European Court of Justice to settle the question of whether dynamic IP addresses are PII, which the ECJ affirmatively settled in [0].

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#510
post #228

Crazy how evil Google is. Just wow. Since this runs entirely on the domain of the website, it can easily ignore your privacy rights, with Google more or less washing their hands clean of it. Indeed, if we take blocking trackers as expression of consent, the only possible reason this exists at all is to illegally circumvent privacy preferences. In other words, if you work for Google, you are literally working for a cr…

Google: "Don't be evil"

Wat?

Post reply on HN