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Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

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Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#281

Post by durnygbur »

bruce343434 wrote: post #260
durnygbur wrote: post #220

As a web/fullstack with over 10 years of experience and based in EU, I don't have this impression at all. Actively applying and interviewing, still receiving absurd requests to resolve various quizzes, teasers, and assignments. Potential salaries top at miserable 70-80k EUR in countries where monthly salary deductions reach 40%. It's better for me to basically seat idle and work on some personal projects.

boohoo, you only earn 70-80k EUR bruto. And you get to live in Europe as well?? You realize the average bruto salary in (west) Europe is around 20-30K EUR? Even lower in east Europe? You are one of the luckiest, most privileged people alive. Yes, there's always a bigger fish/higher salary. But christ, get some perspective.

I don't consider this entitled. The highest income tax rate kicks in at around 55-60k EUR and any amount above this translates into miniscule increase in net salary. Then EU companies during recruitment use the same tools and platforms as US companies who pay >>100k. No Amazon and Gloglle and silly startup in Berlin, with the salaries available over here I'll not study 2 months for your cutthroat tests and assignments.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#282

Post by Dave3of5 »

lelanthran wrote: post #258
LAC-Tech wrote: post #176

I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all. We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. If anyone has read Developer Hegemony , I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, a…

> We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. This is actually quite interesting as I was just talking to a few other professionals about this in a social setting. I was the only one in software development. I mentioned how stand-ups work briefl…

The DSU shouldn't be for non-technical people. They literally should not speak at all during this daily meeting if they are even there.

It's for Devs only to make sure they are not blocked and they are communicating what they are working on. In my last company the non-tech people weren't allowed and the DSU was only for engineering.

It is not a daily status meeting!

If it has turned into this then it should be scrapped because as you say it'll lead to people leaving as they feel they are being treated as low skill staff.

Btw I wrote this in a DSU that had non-tech people yabbering and which was basically a daily status meeting.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#283

Post by dgb23 »

visarga wrote: post #195
Apocryphon wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the controversial statement in question was the claim that "18 is awfully old to start learning something for the first time" wrt programming.

It's late only if you want to become a top programmer. Top programmers are like top pianists, they start early and are very motivated.

I started at around 10, but there are plenty of programmers I look up to that didn’t. It’s an indication of intrinsic motivation and genuine interest, but there are plenty of people who find that much later.

Even today, 25 years later I feel like I learn things more effectively than when I was a kid. Certain types of skills benefit from experience and networked thought. Time per day/week is a much more limiting factor though.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#284

Post by cudgy »

“If the economic conditions change and investors decide they don’t like tech companies anymore, many of them will inevitably close. Less companies hiring also means less demand.”

This is a cyclical phenomena, but most likely the factor listed to have the greatest impact on developers.

As for high developer salaries, scarcity of knowledge with newer languages and frameworks along with the demand for experienced candidates with those skills certainly has an impact.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#285

Post by dgb23 »

glandium wrote: post #251
pech0rin wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely false. I became fluent in Japanese in my 30s. Learned guitar in my late 20s. This is so wrong. You can continue learning until you are dead.

(edit: I started learning Japanese at 18. I'd say) I became fluent in Japanese in my late 20s. I'm close to 44. My wife is Japanese. I live in Japan. Japanese middle-schoolers (edit: ok, maybe high-schoolers) are more fluent than I am. GP is not saying you can't learn. GP is saying you're unlikely to be more skilled than those who started earlier. Also, past a certain age, there's a more limited amount of time you ca…

I think the time factor is likely the most dominant when it comes to learning new things. The beauty of being a young learner is having much more time to do so due to having less responsibilities.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#286

Post by schwartzworld »

lelanthran wrote: post #258
LAC-Tech wrote: post #176

I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all. We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. If anyone has read Developer Hegemony , I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, a…

> We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. This is actually quite interesting as I was just talking to a few other professionals about this in a social setting. I was the only one in software development. I mentioned how stand-ups work briefl…

> Every single one of them (all professionals, like I said) were adamant that they would leave any position that managed them no better than a burger-flipper.

Such entitled garbage. Restaurants manage people much more tightly, and often with very abusive practices and wage theft added in.

Stand-up is nothing compared to having an underpaid alcoholic yell at you because you leaned against the wall 2/3 of the way through your second double shift in a row.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#287

Post by durnygbur »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #257
durnygbur wrote: post #220

As a web/fullstack with over 10 years of experience and based in EU, I don't have this impression at all. Actively applying and interviewing, still receiving absurd requests to resolve various quizzes, teasers, and assignments. Potential salaries top at miserable 70-80k EUR in countries where monthly salary deductions reach 40%. It's better for me to basically seat idle and work on some personal projects.

>Actively applying and interviewing, still receiving absurd requests to resolve various quizzes, teasers, and assignments. Potential salaries top at miserable 70-80k EUR in countries where monthly salary deductions reach 40%. Let me guess, France/Austria/Belgium?

Germany, Denmark, and even Netherlands after the initial 5 years discount... list me one country where it doesn't apply...

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#288

Post by nivenkos »

bruce343434 wrote: post #260
durnygbur wrote: post #220

As a web/fullstack with over 10 years of experience and based in EU, I don't have this impression at all. Actively applying and interviewing, still receiving absurd requests to resolve various quizzes, teasers, and assignments. Potential salaries top at miserable 70-80k EUR in countries where monthly salary deductions reach 40%. It's better for me to basically seat idle and work on some personal projects.

boohoo, you only earn 70-80k EUR bruto. And you get to live in Europe as well?? You realize the average bruto salary in (west) Europe is around 20-30K EUR? Even lower in east Europe? You are one of the luckiest, most privileged people alive. Yes, there's always a bigger fish/higher salary. But christ, get some perspective.

I pay 40% income tax (56% marginal), 25% sales tax, 35% electricity tax.

It means 80k doesn't go as far as it'd seem, especially with increasing interest rates.

Considering Americans are on 200k+, it just doesn't compare.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#289

Post by dgb23 »

Thorham wrote: post #102
CydeWeys wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

18 is awfully old to start learning something for the first time. Imagine saying the same thing about math, reading, or history. It's harder to pick things up when you're older, and it leaves fewer people capable of it. See also: learning human languages.

Most professions are learned and mastered after people finish high school, so that's clearly not true.

To add, some professions even require a certain age or previous, (unrelated) trade, like paramedics. They don’t teach teenagers to do certain jobs.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#290

Post by cudgy »

mibollma wrote: post #236
edanm wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I'm not defending every single workplace here. Obviously some developers aren't treated well, and in those cases, they should find another job. I was commenting on the fairly blanket statement made. But the way the conversation should go isn't the developer deciding when refactoring should happen. It's the developer giving an analysis of the cost and benefit of a refactoring (it will take X time, but will save…

> It's the developer giving an analysis of the cost and benefit of a refactoring (it will take X time, but will save Y work in the future). And the manager factoring that into all the other circumstances, and deciding whether it's worth the current cost. I don't think either devlopers or managers can estimate future savings in most cases, but I still think it's necessary to refactor just to not drown in complexity an…

Why 20%? Just curious how you arrived at that percentage.
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