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Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

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Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#61

Post by flatiron »

nightski wrote: post #51
aerosmile wrote: post #40

So many people offering explanations, and yet not a single one of them answers the OP's question. If you're upset that Intuit is engaging in lobbying (as you should be!), that might be an appropriate answer for a different question (eg: why doesn't the IRS just send us their own reports for us to approve?). Again, I am not defending Intuit's involvement in politics, but that's not the answer to the dark patterns ques…

For many if not dare I say most TurboTax is among the cheapest because it is free. The fact is if your situation is simple (a W-2 and the standard deduction) then you can get away with just about anything. The truth is the IRS doesn't send reports because this country is obsessed with deductions. Your income (which the IRS does know about) is a small factor in the entire equation. Ironically, under Trump's tax cuts,…

If you sold a single stock throughout the year you are excluded from all the free tax filing software I’ve seen. A bunch of my income is in RSUs. For us I need a VM to run TurboTax

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#62

Post by unosama »

ytdytvhxgydvhh wrote: post #11

Why would I be mad at Intuit? They’re an amoral profit-seeking company seeking profit. I’m furious at the IRS and Congress for not providing me with a free, simple federal tax filing solution. I know there are free file programs for certain income brackets or tax situations, but it’s outrageous that the IRS has colluded with Intuit (and other paid tax preparers) by strongly recommending that taxpayers file electronic…

They encourage filing electronically now? That's news to me. I filed my taxes electronically two years ago and they apparently printed it out and then lost the paperwork, then accused me me of failing to file taxes a year later. This year I found out they lost it again.

I just don't understand why they're encouraging e-filing when they can't keep track of them properly.

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#63

Post by hbrav »

jrockway wrote: post #38
Darmody wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government here (Spain) knows the money I make just as any government knows about its citizens. When I'm to do my taxes, I get an auto generated draft and the only thing I have to do is click the "Accept" button. You only have to fill your taxes manually if you're self employed or have some sort of earnings other than your job, in which case, the company that does you accounting, does the taxes for you too in 15…

> The government here (Spain) knows the money I make just as any government knows about its citizens. The problem the IRS is trying to solve is collecting taxes on money they don't know about. For example, if you sell illegal drugs, you should be paying tax on that income. But obviously you don't report to the government the amount of illegal drugs you sell. So they can't just send you a bill for your taxes. It is od…

I'm pretty confident I'm correctly picking up on sarcasm here.

But if I understand correctly, that corner case isn't even "real". Suppose you were a drug dealer in a country that automatically handles tax, and most citizens don't need to file a return, e.g. the UK. I'm pretty confident you can still be prosecuted for failure to report the income from your drug dealing, just as you could be for not reporting any other income where the tax wasn't removed from the paycheck.

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#64

Post by anm89 »

ytdytvhxgydvhh wrote: post #11

Why would I be mad at Intuit? They’re an amoral profit-seeking company seeking profit. I’m furious at the IRS and Congress for not providing me with a free, simple federal tax filing solution. I know there are free file programs for certain income brackets or tax situations, but it’s outrageous that the IRS has colluded with Intuit (and other paid tax preparers) by strongly recommending that taxpayers file electronic…

This is like if you were getting violently mugged and you stopped in the middle and said "why would I be mad at the muggers, they are just optimizing their own finances".

You can expect people to do what is in their own interest without supporting them. I expect that the muggers will mug me. I don't support them in mugging me.

They are an amoral profit seeking company who is screwing you and I over so they can benefit. That doesn't mean it should automatically be illegal, but it's not clear to me why you would like this.

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#65

Post by hbrav »

ytdytvhxgydvhh wrote: post #11

Why would I be mad at Intuit? They’re an amoral profit-seeking company seeking profit. I’m furious at the IRS and Congress for not providing me with a free, simple federal tax filing solution. I know there are free file programs for certain income brackets or tax situations, but it’s outrageous that the IRS has colluded with Intuit (and other paid tax preparers) by strongly recommending that taxpayers file electronic…

I'm not sure your outrage at the IRS is well-placed. The Taxpayer First Act prevents the IRS from developing a competing tax-filing service: https://www.propublica.org/article/congress-is-about-to-ban-...

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#66

Post by anm89 »

_bfhp wrote: post #32
ytdytvhxgydvhh wrote: post #11

Why would I be mad at Intuit? They’re an amoral profit-seeking company seeking profit. I’m furious at the IRS and Congress for not providing me with a free, simple federal tax filing solution. I know there are free file programs for certain income brackets or tax situations, but it’s outrageous that the IRS has colluded with Intuit (and other paid tax preparers) by strongly recommending that taxpayers file electronic…

Why would I be mad at the guy who stabbed me? He is simply a collection of atoms following fatalistic processes. I'm furious at the knife and knife makers for not providing me with a stab-wound-free epidermis.

Funny I just came up with almost the exact same analogy above and then saw your post.

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#67

Post by bpodgursky »

flatiron wrote: post #61
nightski wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For many if not dare I say most TurboTax is among the cheapest because it is free. The fact is if your situation is simple (a W-2 and the standard deduction) then you can get away with just about anything. The truth is the IRS doesn't send reports because this country is obsessed with deductions. Your income (which the IRS does know about) is a small factor in the entire equation. Ironically, under Trump's tax cuts,…

If you sold a single stock throughout the year you are excluded from all the free tax filing software I’ve seen. A bunch of my income is in RSUs. For us I need a VM to run TurboTax

I have filed with all sorts of wild overcomplicated ISO/ESPP/RSU/NSO/etc employee stock compensation and never had to use anything other than the webapp. Why do you need to run the desktop application at all?

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#68

Post by bpodgursky »

rkk3 wrote: post #54
nightski wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For many if not dare I say most TurboTax is among the cheapest because it is free. The fact is if your situation is simple (a W-2 and the standard deduction) then you can get away with just about anything. The truth is the IRS doesn't send reports because this country is obsessed with deductions. Your income (which the IRS does know about) is a small factor in the entire equation. Ironically, under Trump's tax cuts,…

> TurboTax is among the cheapest because it is free Free? Haha in what world?

It's free if your taxes are covered by:

* W-2 income * Limited interest and dividend income reported on a 1099-INT or 1099-DIV * Claiming the standard deduction * Earned Income Tax Credit (EIC) * Child tax credits * Student Loan Interest deduction

basically if you don't sell any assets, have employee stock compensation, or donate a ton of money you can file for free.

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#69

Post by SilasX »

flatiron wrote: post #61
nightski wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For many if not dare I say most TurboTax is among the cheapest because it is free. The fact is if your situation is simple (a W-2 and the standard deduction) then you can get away with just about anything. The truth is the IRS doesn't send reports because this country is obsessed with deductions. Your income (which the IRS does know about) is a small factor in the entire equation. Ironically, under Trump's tax cuts,…

If you sold a single stock throughout the year you are excluded from all the free tax filing software I’ve seen. A bunch of my income is in RSUs. For us I need a VM to run TurboTax

I used FreeTaxUSA with a Wealthfront account that had stock trading. Wasn’t charged.

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#70

Post by twblalock »

giantg2 wrote: post #48
aerosmile wrote: post #40

So many people offering explanations, and yet not a single one of them answers the OP's question. If you're upset that Intuit is engaging in lobbying (as you should be!), that might be an appropriate answer for a different question (eg: why doesn't the IRS just send us their own reports for us to approve?). Again, I am not defending Intuit's involvement in politics, but that's not the answer to the dark patterns ques…

"why doesn't the IRS just send us their own reports for us to approve?" I assume because nobody would file taxes for things that the IRS was absent from their report, because now you know the IRS doesn't know about it and won't be missing it. I think TurboTax has too many partnerships and offers. It gets people because it's free or only $10 or whatever. It would be pretty easy to switch to other software, like HR Blo…

> I assume because nobody would file taxes for things that the IRS was absent from their report, because now you know the IRS doesn't know about it and won't be missing it.

That's not why.

The IRS is underfunded and overworked, so even if it had the information it needed to generate a report for everyone, it still couldn't do it. But it doesn't have that information anyway!

A lot of taxable income is derived from sources that are not reported to the IRS before taxes are filed. This includes things like cost basis for RSUs, state and local taxes (including property tax), and various kinds of investment income. Until 2008, brokers were not even required to report cost basis information to the IRS, which enabled people to easily lie about the amount of their taxable gains!

On top of that, there are a lot of deductions that are based on information the IRS does not have, such as business expenses, moving expenses, etc.

The IRS still largely relies on self-reporting by taxpayers. Anyone with a moderately complex tax situation (e.g. a homeowner, or someone with investment income) knows more about their tax situation than the IRS does!

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