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The Dubai Debt Trap

economist.com

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Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#341

Post by AtlasBarfed »

2143 wrote: post #340
spiderfarmer wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After some bad experiences I will never visit an Arab country again. They'll have to do something against the sexism, constant heckling and the bad state of law before I even think about going there. Or they can do whatever they want, they don't have to change just for me. I'm 6 ft 6 and I have a blonde wife who's just a bit smaller. Even though we behaved very polite and dressed like locals it was like we had a big…

> They'll have to do something against the sexism They're working on it. The situation has improved. There's a long way to go, but there's progress. Give it a 100 more years. > dressed like locals Please don't do that. It just looks weird when foreigners do it. Just wear what you would normally wear in your western country. (Although, a bikini is probably not a good idea). > were looked upon with resentment everywher…

IMO it is very unlikely Dubai functionally exists in 100 years. The end of the oil age, global warming, war, decay.

Then the sand will consume it.

I predict it will be a fascinating ghost city, almost like a bizarro-pyramids/sphinx/etc.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#342

Post by 2143 »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #341
2143 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They'll have to do something against the sexism They're working on it. The situation has improved. There's a long way to go, but there's progress. Give it a 100 more years. > dressed like locals Please don't do that. It just looks weird when foreigners do it. Just wear what you would normally wear in your western country. (Although, a bikini is probably not a good idea). > were looked upon with resentment everywher…

IMO it is very unlikely Dubai functionally exists in 100 years. The end of the oil age, global warming, war, decay. Then the sand will consume it. I predict it will be a fascinating ghost city, almost like a bizarro-pyramids/sphinx/etc.

The oil kings realised long ago they'll run out of oil eventually.

So they've diversified into other businesses. It's now a hub of business activities that have nothing to do with oil.

Global warming — yes that's a problem, but Dubai won't be the only place affected by it.

War — what makes you think there'll be a war? Whatever it is, it's just speculation at this point. As long as a certain war-o-phile country doesn't decide to flatten it.

decay — huh?! What decay?!

> Then the sand will consume it.

Sandman!

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#343

Post by dspillett »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #325
dspillett wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, 8: almost any idiot can own a gun & ammunition, and far too many idiots do.

Fortunately, we live in a country where idiots have the same rights as those who think are smarter than them. I, for one, am glad we aren't going back to racist gating of citizenship privileges...behind literacy tests, or economic means

I wasn't suggesting idiots have different rights to anyone else, or in fact that I myself am not an idiot.

I, for one, am glad I live on a continent where mass shootings are a rare occurrence. One-off shootings too, and people accidentally hurting themselves with the things, for that matter.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#344

Post by LightG »

feupan wrote: post #223
LightG wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my point of view, I could say "What a weird comment full of assumptions and hatred" about the parent comment. I've travelled back and forth from Dubai for business and other emirates and countries and never had that experience. When you say "fact being told", you actually mean "anecdote being shared". Nothing from my experience indicates an automatic feeling of hatred towards me and my wife when going to these c…

> Maybe it's time you engaged with the cultures. I'm sure it'll be "No thanks". Surprise me. I’ll surprise you: English is not my first language, I haven’t been in my home country since 2015, I speak 3 languages fluently, I’m currently living in Indonesia and can already speak my fourth language (although not well). I lived 3-15 months each in more than 10 countries. You got the wrong person. I know what I’m talking…

You mean you've lived in an enviroment where these things tend to happen.

Maybe it's time you up the standard of your associates. Those standards are high and low in all countries. It's your choice to associate or tolerate them or find those that have a higher standard.

As said, my experiences have been different.

Good luck,

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#345

Post by Jerrrry »

celticninja wrote: post #122
dicroce wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 6'6"... I wish you would mention the countries so I can make sure to never go.

Dubai, UAE, basically any supposed theocracy run by sheikhs should be avoided.

If you are above 6'6", you are constantly a target for drunk people wanting to hit someone and run.

This is much more common than you think in cities.

Source: 7'

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#346

Post by AtlasBarfed »

2143 wrote: post #342
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO it is very unlikely Dubai functionally exists in 100 years. The end of the oil age, global warming, war, decay. Then the sand will consume it. I predict it will be a fascinating ghost city, almost like a bizarro-pyramids/sphinx/etc.

The oil kings realised long ago they'll run out of oil eventually. So they've diversified into other businesses. It's now a hub of business activities that have nothing to do with oil. Global warming — yes that's a problem, but Dubai won't be the only place affected by it. War — what makes you think there'll be a war? Whatever it is, it's just speculation at this point. As long as a certain war-o-phile country doesn'…

Physically it's like when I fly over Arizona and Las Vegas. Those are preposterous settlements. Dubai is that to the nth degree.

Dubai is so recently and explosively settled, you may not understand what I mean by decay. Cities evolve, change, decay, and hopefully renew. Dubai is a product of aggressive investment/subsidy by the royalty, directly or not. Parts of the city will decline. Aspects of the city will decline. Decay is inevitable, it's entropy. Cities are like life: they must actively renew themselves or they fade.

Dubai also is basically a modern slave labor state. How long will that persist? It seems untenable in the long term. Either the slave labor will leave or dry up, or rebel.

Dubai is attached to the oil age. It's excesses, abuses, etc are forgiven by the world elite because of the flow of oil money. That is going to end. Demand is going to PLUMMET worldwide as EVs displace first consumer transport, then local goods delivery, then long haul ground transport. Somewhere in the middle of "consumer transport" and "local goods delivery" the demand will drop by such a large and extended amount that the price won't really be profitable anymore.

Diversification is obviously the aim, and while this isn't authoritative, I've seen this in action with the bizarre satellite/branch universities Saudi Arabia paid various western universities to set up. Just because you throw money at it doesn't mean it sticks. Those universities couldn't find the people that would do the work of academia beyond the usual bullshit of rubber stamp diplomas that universities currently make sausage with.

The sand will consume it. Dubai has to actively keep sand dunes away. If that stops, and what if a section of a city decays and isn't work keeping the dunes away? Yes, the sand will "consume" it.

The oil kings are attempting the "pivot". They are fat, lazy, and unmotivated.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#347

Post by kwhitefoot »

BeetleB wrote: post #232
vianneychevalie wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the article, it's mentioned that people there are held in jail for decades for debts below $1000. That's the "debt trap" in the title. I'd argue that I'd rather let someone steal than let them rot in jail for such a long time, for such a low monetary value, be it from debt or from theft. I understand you may disagree, that's why we do politics. Additionally, which country has the best "rule of law", comparatively?…

> In the article, it's mentioned that people there are held in jail for decades for debts below $1000. That's the "debt trap" in the title. Eh, lots of people are in jail in the US primarily due to their inability to pay court fees. Many because they couldn't pay the public defender fees.[1] Lots of cases where the accumulation of court fees dwarfs the financial costs of their original crime, and are punished much mo…

I though debtors prisons were supposed to be unconstitutional.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#348

Post by fishtacos »

selestify wrote: post #323
fishtacos wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many of those expats are working slave-like conditions, is the greater point that ought to be discussed. (Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Philippines, Iraq, you name it). If 10 percent of the country's population is native, they are surely benefiting from subsidized education, housing, preferential (read: racist) employment, free land, and so on. It's VERY different from most places in the world, except for other si…

> How many of those expats are working slave-like conditions Given that all the Indians I know think positively of Dubai, I'm inclined to think that it's very few of them, because surely they'd hear about slave conditions from people who went there before anyone else. If you've ever been to Dubai, you'd know it's full of people from the subcontinent. Why would it be so full of them if a substantial fraction of them a…

Under no circumstances did I claim that "all those people looking for a better life" as "slave labor". I asked an open ended and relatively rhetorical question.

Is 1% acceptable in your book vs. the majority of the workforce being in slave-labor-like conditions?

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#349

Post by maccolgan »

rayiner wrote: post #248
mbg721 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point would you waive the right to a trial-by-jury? I think about that from time to time; if I'm accused of something, what crimes are less sympathetic to my peers than to a judge?

Your peers aren’t sympathetic to crime at all. A 2014 sentencing project report found that supermajorities of people (including both white and Black people, by the way) believe that the criminal justice system is “not harsh enough.”

No post body was provided.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#350

Post by selestify »

fishtacos wrote: post #348
selestify wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many of those expats are working slave-like conditions Given that all the Indians I know think positively of Dubai, I'm inclined to think that it's very few of them, because surely they'd hear about slave conditions from people who went there before anyone else. If you've ever been to Dubai, you'd know it's full of people from the subcontinent. Why would it be so full of them if a substantial fraction of them a…

Under no circumstances did I claim that "all those people looking for a better life" as "slave labor". I asked an open ended and relatively rhetorical question. Is 1% acceptable in your book vs. the majority of the workforce being in slave-labor-like conditions?

> Is 1% acceptable in your book vs. the majority of the workforce being in slave-labor-like conditions?

It's not ideal, but yeah. I definitely wouldn't look down on an entire city for not being able to root out that last 1% of corrupt employers.

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