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Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work

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Re: Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work

#281

FYI, before you chastise the OP for not backing up, please take a minute and think about the fact that this can happen with Gmail too. Have you backed up your email? I think Google has the responsibility to make it VERY clear that you can lose access to your content without notice. I don't think users truly understand that now.

Seriously, we've been in this for a decade at least. There was enough time to learn this single lesson: data stored in someone's cloud is not your data. In 2022 it's plain stupid to keep your email in Gmail or rely on Google Photos as the only storage for your family archive. People pay $15/mo for Netflix, but can't pay $50/year for a email address? Nobody will lend a random person $1000, but people still happily giv…

But paying 50 USD still keeps the data in the cloud. You cannot spend money to solve the backup problem, you need a process and quite a lot of technical and organizational skill.

I honestly think there are less than 1 in 100 people who have a working system of backups that would bring them back all their photos taken from their mobile phones.

Since Google turned off syncing of photos to Google Drive, my system broke for instance. Like OP, I haven't had time to set a new backup process up since then.

Re: Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work

#282
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how my parents would be able to run their own email service or manage a backup routine if they went the POP3 & SMTP route. The reason why cloud services have grown so much is because they make computing services accessible and easy to use for a much wider portion of the population. I think it will take multiple generations of technological fluency indoctrination before we can get to the point where peopl…

There's a big difference between free and paid cloud services.

Why do you think that? Most people actually need to pay Google at least for the data storage subscription.

Re: Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work

#283

Heyo, First off, sorry to hear that this has happened to you. It's never the for tools to be abused like this and for support be to be so unreachable. I've gone ahead and sent you an email so I can get some details and we can work to recover at least some of the content. Q. Disc: Googler, but I don't work in YouTube.

:)

I hope OP got in touch. Thanks for doing the thing.

Reading the thread made me think of a curious idea. It's got a couple layers of nuance, but could ultimately be really cool.

In short: have a proactively-updated list somewhere that shows the presentation and content of every single email that will be sent before someone is due to lose access to a given service or their whole account.

For example this could look like a (perhaps loosely-interconnected) web of support.google URLs with content like "you might receive an email like the following" exactly what the email looks like here> "and you can do" .

If this were a reliable resource that stuck around, I could totally see a community-maintained tool emerging that would monitor for these sorts of emails then eg send emergency SMS/notifications/etc so that carefully-coordinated action could be undertaken immediately by competent users. These notifications could be sent to a tech-savvy family member or associate/colleague, who likely would not otherwise have access to the account in question. This person could then gain impromptu access (perhaps via remote access) and take immediate action such as generating takeouts (and perhaps sharding them to raise the chances they complete in time), individully downloading or screenshotting critical info, and firing out bulk alerts reminding of alternate contact info. Basically disaster-handling to try to end-cap workflow disruption while the mess (hOpEfUlLy) gets fixed.

I can't help but think there's probably a disconcertingly large proportion of grandmas and effectively-illiterate users being caught in situations where they have very literally no idea how to proceed (eg, none of their Facebook friends are going to have a clue).

It would seem there is enough awareness and reactivity localized around HN to make a difference to that 99th percentile, if harnessed in a constructive and non-disruptive way.

It's a nuanced idea, but I'm reminded of the old YouTube story where optimizing the homepage made the site seem to load slower because it became viewable by a large demographic of people using sub-2G connections. Here, I can certainly see a temporary uptick in apparent legitimate account closures as the true false positive gap is surfaced, and that might translate to a bit of a suboptimal reputation hit. But in the ideal case, the new feedback would be integrated quickly, that transient spike would soon be forgotten, and in the long term, integrating the new data would help to further micro-optimize the performance of the 99th percentiles involved with the ML analytics processes in ways that exceed expectations.

I'm thinking of the bigger-bigger picture; I understand it's simply impossible for Google to provide tier-one support to every single one of their four billion+ free users. This approach could implement an unorthodox workaround that lets motivated individuals contribute toward closing the loop of false positives. Currently it is effectively impossible for Google's userbase to take charge of this particular edge case. I am sure the number of people who would be very happy to take preventative action against false positives completely outweighs (perhaps by an order of magnitude) those who posture and rage and make themselves look stupid in the forums when things don't go their way.

Knowing what all (or almost all) warning emails look like ahead of time is the only way a significant dent could be made in the false positive statistics; there's nothing stopping a detection project from getting off the ground today, but the lists of what content patterns to look for would have to be forged in blood by users who've had their accounts shut down, with this status quo compounded every time the wording of the warning emails changes.

The one caveat emptor I can think of is that there is of course no way to prevent malicious users from taking advantage of a community initiative that enables a heightened baseline of proactivity, especially if it goes viral and is easy to use. But I'm honestly curious... how might this be the end of the world? The worst the malicious users can do is download their data, which a) they probably have a copy of anyway, and if they don't, b) wouldn't be a great look in legal cases where a defense can say "here is evidence ABC used XYZ software to monitor their account for shutdown, which is why shortly after *point* this email was sent they *point* submitted a takeout request 5 minutes later."

I can definitely see some legal/regulatory/policy hesitancy (sigh), but (from my position as a relatively naive random internet user) I'm hopeful that hesitancy would mostly be without precedential substance, and this could actually viably happen with a bit of gruntwork and convincing.

Re: Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work

#284

FYI, before you chastise the OP for not backing up, please take a minute and think about the fact that this can happen with Gmail too. Have you backed up your email? I think Google has the responsibility to make it VERY clear that you can lose access to your content without notice. I don't think users truly understand that now.

Yes, I have been backing up my email regularly for the past 25+ years, just like any other important data. I have 3-2-1 copies of everything I have ever done on a computer during that time. I cannot understand why anyone would tolerate the risk of losing important information.

How many disks does this require?

Re: Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work

#285
post #154

FYI, before you chastise the OP for not backing up, please take a minute and think about the fact that this can happen with Gmail too. Have you backed up your email? I think Google has the responsibility to make it VERY clear that you can lose access to your content without notice. I don't think users truly understand that now.

>>Have you backed up your email? Yes... Every piece of data I have that I care about is backed up following a 3-2-1 model I am also in the process of moving off Gmail due to the Legacy termination. >I don't think users truly understand that now. In my experience user don't truly understanding anything, given that I work in data storage I take is seriously, I am also called on my people on a semi regular basis to reco…

I am CS mayor and would say that I failed to create a system that works reliably for backup.

My digital footprint is only something like 2 TB, but none of my devices can store this kind amount of data at once without external HDDs. So doing a backup is a step by step manual and time consuming process of downloading and juggling data, rotating individual backups, etc. I rarely could think of doing it more than once per year.

Re: Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work

#286

Had something similar happen years ago. 3x bogus copyright strikes and the entire channel was removed. Can't appeal. Even big content creators get bogus strikes, but they have representatives or something that dispute it with YouTube. Don't use YouTube for anything important.

Why can't you appeal? Did you get a lawyer?

Re: Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work

#287

After seeing posts like this on HN for years, this one officially scared me enough to completely migrate off Gmail altogether. I’m in the process right now of removing my gmail from any online account. Pro-tip: if you use a password manager, it’s as easy as searching for your Gmail address. For all other accounts, I’ve been able to find them by searching for the phrases “verify your email” or “verify email” or “verif…

I'm not sure what the situation described above has to do with Gmail and migrating off of it. OP was storing hundreds of videos, probably against Youtube ToS, to run their business. Pretty sure unlisted videos can't run ads either, so they were basically using Youtube as a free hosting service for their business.

According To OP, YouTube noticed them about cyber bullying, not ToS violation because of hosting many unlisted videos.

Re: Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work

#288
speculates that google cleans out low hanging fruit, using metrics, and there was nothing in the content that triggered the bot at all

Why speculate? Ask your wife if she uses copyrighted content in her videos. Her response should tell you if she was flagged by an automated content-ID system.

All else aside, this is a lesson in never having only one copy of anything remotely important.

Re: Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work

#290

After seeing posts like this on HN for years, this one officially scared me enough to completely migrate off Gmail altogether. I’m in the process right now of removing my gmail from any online account. Pro-tip: if you use a password manager, it’s as easy as searching for your Gmail address. For all other accounts, I’ve been able to find them by searching for the phrases “verify your email” or “verify email” or “verif…

I'm not sure what the situation described above has to do with Gmail and migrating off of it. OP was storing hundreds of videos, probably against Youtube ToS, to run their business. Pretty sure unlisted videos can't run ads either, so they were basically using Youtube as a free hosting service for their business.

The common thread that they are trying to raise awareness about is that Google at any time, for any reason, can lock you out of your account with no way for you to actually find out why or what's happened.

Yes it's probally against YouTube's ToS to get people to pay for content in unlisted videos, but the terms of service doesn't explicitly talk about using YouTube to host paid-for content - it is covered in a border statement though in their ToS [0]

But they should still at least be able to talk to a real human about it and get told the actual reason "Your account was terminated for commercial use of unlisted videos" instead of automated email bot responses/Or have been given some warning "This is against our ToS, your account will be terminated in 7 days"

[0] https://support.google.com/youtube/thread/38348285?hl=en

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