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Difficult situation on campus: traffic jam of food delivery robots

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Re: Difficult situation on campus: traffic jam of food delivery robots

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And shoving it into traffic - or at least calling the police and pressing charges - would have been the right thing to do! If you want to use robots, fine. You are still responsible for them and any people they bowl over!

Probably. This seems like a public space so almost certainly. However if this was private space sometimes the rules are different. Once in a while I have to go into our factory (not even once a year, but sometimes), and they always make it clear that forklifts have the right away so watch out. (forklifts have poor visibility, so by giving them the right of way they ensure nobody expects them to stop - in practice a f…

Forklifts though also are pretty dang loud and have a highly trained operator driving them.

Did not even realize we had "security robots" yet like this - now I am curious what the hell this thing looks like!

Re: Difficult situation on campus: traffic jam of food delivery robots

#312
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the new infrastructure cost is less than the old manual labor cost, you can bank on the infrastructure being built. Truckers holding out on "only humans can handle last mile" are in for a surprise when we start rebuilding the last miles.

I want one of those pneumatic tubes that banks have installed that runs from the local Chipotle to my house ... I'd even pay for it. I think even random citizens would be happy to adjust to it.

JFYI:

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/COMMS/pneumess/pneumess.h...

Re: Difficult situation on campus: traffic jam of food delivery robots

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when I came close it stopped, as they do when sensing an object in front of them The security robots at one of the big skyscrapers down the street from me do not stop for people. My wife got knocked into by one when we were standing in the plaza looking up something on her phone. (They're not little delivery robots. They're about five feet tall.) Good thing she was confused by what happened, because she's also the ty…

And shoving it into traffic - or at least calling the police and pressing charges - would have been the right thing to do! If you want to use robots, fine. You are still responsible for them and any people they bowl over!

Seriously. What if this thing bowls into a child and seriously injures them? Or a dog that is confused on what the hell is going on? I'm not even against them for mobile surveillance but they need to be safe.

And if these things are really 400 pounds with a low center of gravity as people are linking below.......well then I guess you will just have to enlist the help of one other friend in order to knock it over to prevent it from hurting anyone else.

Re: Difficult situation on campus: traffic jam of food delivery robots

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why they don't parametrize momentum with certainty. In any confusing situation, go into ultra slow environment scanning and when confidence increases, allow for a bit more.. rinse / repeat.

All I can say without breaking agreements is that these are products , not ideal models of conceptual engineering. They're not created by people who like the world and want it to be a better place. They're created by people with lots of money who want a lot more. They've found an avenue for this by persuading other wealthy, greedy people to give them a lot of money and promising they can give them more back. They'll…

> They're not created by people who like the world and want it to be a better place. They're created by people with lots of money who want a lot more. ... They'll do this by persuading everyday people to not do things like produce, prepare, and transfer food themselves and instead pay money for these robots to do it.

This is an extremely negative outlook. I'm a robotics and controls engineer for a small (25-employee) integrator, our company mission is to make lives and products better, and I really think that everyone believes in that. Our meager budgets and slim, fluctuating profit margins are evidence that it's not all about "lots of money"...there are certainly those making a killing on it but it's not everyone. And maybe Upton Sinclair was correct, it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it, but I've spent a lot of time thinking about this (and not just in response to news articles, I took ethics and philosophy courses to pad out my gen eds on my way to my engineering degree, I've read books on the topic, and I've talked to lots of other engineers, my customers, the operators who have been transitioned from old equipment to run my new automated equpment...). But I stand by my argument that humans are no good replacement for robots, and robots are no good replacement for humans. The tech needs to be employed judiciously, but it can be used for good.

I've installed equipment in dozens of places where life was made better: There were less than 90 fingers among a lunch table at the foundry with 10 guys at it (4 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 lost digits) when I installed a robotic grinding cell that removed parting lines from valve castings, now they can ergonomically load infeed shuttles and have time to quality check the parts from behind a safety fence; no more fingers have been lost. Two older women (One with arthritis!) at a plastics company no longer have to keep up with placing a tiny foam spacer on a dial table every 2.5 seconds for 8 hours a day, 6 days a week, with a half-hour lunch and 2 15-mintue breaks...that's nearly torture, and it was a really challenging material handling problem, but the robot does it well. The operators now pour in bags of foam spacers, do offline quality checks more frequently (catching upstream problems quicker, leading to less waste), and basically pour bins of parts into the machine and get one assembly out every 1.75 seconds now. Two weeks ago, I was training a 64 year old seamstress (she retires in 8 months and 24 days) on the operation of an automated sewing machine. She's been pushing fabric through a sewing machine, keeping it between 3/8" and 5/8" on the seam allowance, since she was 16 years old. Now she lays out fabric on the infeed table - she's pleased that she finally has time that doesn't impact production rates to make sure the patterns match precisely - and she inspects the stitching on the product that comes out the outfeed chute to adjust thread tensions and strokes on the sewing machine. Literally Tuesday of this week, I was at a wood processing plant installing a new automated saw, when I heard that a 19-year-old greenhorn lost his right index finger between the first and second knuckles on an old manual saw. I was there installing the fully automated, fully guarded replacement equipment; you can drop a pallet of roughsawn lumber on the infeed material handler and correctly sized boards come out the other side, with no one needing to be closer than 20 feet from the saw blade. I wasn't fast enough.

In all these cases, no one got fired, people just transitioned from mindless, repetitive grunt work to real human work, while capacity and efficiency increased. And not only are all these operators enjoying their jobs more, your gas is cheaper, new cars are cheaper and more reliable, new furniture is cheaper and the cushions are more consistently sewn, and solid-wood cabinet doors are produced more safely, accurately, and quickly. It's not all about capital.

Re: Difficult situation on campus: traffic jam of food delivery robots

#315

I worked for this specific company, a couple years ago, as a robot handler and operator. In situations like this it is possible for an operator to manually organize the robots. Before I left we were making great strides to allow 1 operator to be able to keep tabs on up to 5 robots at a time in certain neighborhoods. Campuses, which are fully and thoroughly mapped, can probably have 1, maybe 2 operators at a time. Jus…

This is how I assumed the ones near me operate - they are mostly independent and a live person takes over if it gets in trouble or encounters a tough situations. I can imagine one person being able to operate more than 5 if they have solid pathing.

Re: Difficult situation on campus: traffic jam of food delivery robots

#316
post #284

A couple of years ago, I was attacked by a Kiwi bot near a UC campus. This is my story. The bot and I were moving towards each other on a sidewalk, and when I came close it stopped, as they do when sensing an object in front of them. But there was an awkward moment as I tried to go around it and it repeatedly jerked forward an inch as its motor kicked on and off. Maybe I was walking around the very edge of its radius…

I’ve had this happen with actual humans. A human is coming toward me on a path. I zig. They zig. I zag. They zag. We walk into each other. It must be some kind of human path finding bug. :-)

@js2 please check your inbox: you have been recalled

Re: Difficult situation on campus: traffic jam of food delivery robots

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how to get a robot half feet into a choke point, immediately get stuck for half an hour surrounded by walls and confused people, until developer on an emergency Slack call along facility managers and company CTO verifies and communicates a likely-safe state of robot and surrounding equipment to field operators and a go is given to pull the thing out of the elevator.

wouldn't people prefer choking robots rather than overly confident and bumping ones ?

Probably not if they're sticking 18" into the only elevator on the floor.

Re: Difficult situation on campus: traffic jam of food delivery robots

#318
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? There are numerous clips where Telsas in "full self driving" mode pull the equivalent maneuver of a teenager going "OH SHIT I WANT TO GO THERE" and veering very violently. The phantom braking problem is likely just one of the many symptoms of Musk's insistence on relying on optical systems instead of more expensive sensors.

Expense was part of the equation initially, however, through economies of scale, we eventually would have been able to reach a feasible price point. Cost has nothing to do with why Tesla is pursuing an optical-only system. To get rid of the dependency on the radar sensor for autopilot, we generated over 10 billion labels across two and a half million clips. To do this we had to scale our offline neural networks and o…

That must be why complaints about phantom braking have gone through the roof since the switch away from radar.

Re: Difficult situation on campus: traffic jam of food delivery robots

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one I've seen in the wild. The K5 rocket-shaped model is heavy, 400 lbs (180 kg) https://www.knightscope.com/

"rocket shaped" is sort of a generous way to describe it. My first exposure to security robots was actually a company marketing a repurposed remote-controlled lawnmower platform. It was nearly the size of a Smartcar but low to the ground and designed to cross difficult terrain. Even so, a similarly designed lawnmower tumbled down a hill and killed its operator around the same time frame (I don't think from the same c…

It's more rocket-shaped than Jeff Bezos's cocket ship.

Re: Difficult situation on campus: traffic jam of food delivery robots

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Usually when I see this, I just knock the things over and push them out of the way. So you make the problem worse ? Why don’t you take 2 minutes and push them to the side of the sidewalk if you care so much about ADA access? You can fix the problem you are encountering, and the people you want to protect CANT. You are choosing to make the problem worse for them? Why? I live in a major downtown full of these scooter…

Perhaps it is human nature to want to inflict harm on those we perceive to be causing harm. This rarely leads to the best outcome. So I would love to hear from cooler heads that could improve the following idea and take the pointless retribution out of it: It is not enough to kick over a scooter. We need to tag repeat offenders and increase the severity of the response. For instance, paint one handlebar grip on the f…

If Moore's law continues for a few more years, we'll probably see offenders fined automatically with the use of omnipresent traffic cameras. Since the scooters have number plates just like cars, it isn't infeasible to identify them and their drivers at any moment. The cameras and software that are already in place made me wary of driving, and especially parking, in the UK (after fining me for parking at an empty motorway restaurant parking lot overnight, and at a half-empty supermarket car park with no gate for more than 90 minutes), and there is nothing that will prevent them from spoiling my preferred mode of transport that I use to travel to work every day, electric scooters.

In particular, they could achieve this by enforcing the law that makes them illegal to drive on the sidewalk. It won't matter that it is 3am and the nearest pedestrian is two miles away, or that you're driving at less than walking speed. You'll get fined anyway.

To add a bit of optimism, maybe these systems will become good enough to only fine those who drive inconsiderately or dangerously, and a successful campaign will make that the law, instead of the blanket ban.

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