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The Dubai Debt Trap

economist.com

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Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#191

Post by feupan »

Aspos wrote: post #33
retube wrote: post #5

All I ever hear is horror stories about this place: environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot. I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth.

Those horror stories are mostly propaganda amplified in echo chambers of people who have never been to Dubai. Take this "slavery" nonsense for example. There is literally no difference between migration regime of a low-skilled worker and a highly-paid "expat". Rules are the same and they are way softer than, for example, H1B. Millions used to be spent on smearing Dubai, so we will be hearing echoes of those "horror s…

> There is literally no difference between migration regime of a low-skilled worker and a highly-paid "expat".

You can’t be serious.

Nobody is withholding an expat’s passport while they live in boxes with 16 other people and working for months on end.

You’re making ridiculous comparisons and it makes me dubious of your intent here.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#192

Post by rastignack »

mrwnmonm wrote: post #169
spiderfarmer wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After some bad experiences I will never visit an Arab country again. They'll have to do something against the sexism, constant heckling and the bad state of law before I even think about going there. Or they can do whatever they want, they don't have to change just for me. I'm 6 ft 6 and I have a blonde wife who's just a bit smaller. Even though we behaved very polite and dressed like locals it was like we had a big…

Are you western? I get really bored hearing someone talking about us like this. While your knowledge about Arab countries comes from an all-inclusive trip to Tunisia or something. The west always plays a big role in keeping dictators all over the place, who don't care about education or anything other than their chair. People are ignorant and if you look fancy or different, even if you are native, they will look at y…

Or one could see what happened in Tahrir, Koln, Milan. Or the fact that some imams in my country call out unveiled women as prostitutes.

There are issues with women rights in many country. Blaming the west is a way to ignore them.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#193

Post by pradn »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #47
JohnGB wrote: post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

After some bad experiences I will never visit an Arab country again. They'll have to do something against the sexism, constant heckling and the bad state of law before I even think about going there. Or they can do whatever they want, they don't have to change just for me. I'm 6 ft 6 and I have a blonde wife who's just a bit smaller. Even though we behaved very polite and dressed like locals it was like we had a big…

I went to Egypt a few months ago and was met with incredibly warm people, with perhaps even an excess of hospitality. Yes, you do get charged extra for being a tourist at the tourist spots. But that's only a small part of the country. That said, I am Indian and was met as an Egyptian most of the time (people would start speaking to me in Arabic 70% of the time), so I had the benefit of fitting in well. The delicious food, the serene Nile, the magnificent range of art, the tea shops, and the people - the country is worth a visit even if you aren't into ancient Egyptian stuff. Travel is always a risk, so there's that.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#194

Post by danans »

retube wrote: post #5

All I ever hear is horror stories about this place: environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot. I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth.

> environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot.

You forgot one: world's premier shopping mall destination.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#195

Post by eldaisfish »

knownjorbist wrote: post #127
apohn wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say this as somebody who lived in one of those Middle Eastern countries for a good period of my life. I'm not a white person and at that time I didn't have a US/European passport, so I didn't lead an extra privalaged life there. Here's what you can hear about the USA. 1)Endless suburban sprawl, resulting in massive environmental destruction. Illegal immigrants heavily involved in the construction industry, leading…

In the face of all of this, the US remains the most desirable place to emigrate to. The logical conclusion here is that the impression you have from news is not the complete picture. The US is massive and diverse. If you go by the county level, the US contains the highest HDI areas in the world.

there's a curious fact that i see getting overlooked in every one of these discussion. The US - for all its faults, remains a society capable of deep change, confronting its own crimes and one that is fundamentally built around inclusion. all this is to say that the problems of US society as documented and that one is free to read about them if one chooses.

This is not the case in the Arab world, for example. I grew up there and have seen horrors of which there is no documented evidence.

You are correct - despite all its flaws, the USA remains a magnet for talent from around the world.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#196

Post by titanomachy »

apohn wrote: post #98
ludamad wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a lot of people like to feel like the rest of the world is a shithole." I wouldn't say that's my bias - I like to travel so I like to feel like the rest of the world is welcoming. However, clear problems that are different from what I'm used to do make me uncomfortable

>I like to travel so I like to feel like the rest of the world is welcoming. I'm not making any assumptions about you in this post, but just making a comment. I think the challenge here is that "welcoming" is relative to who you are, including your financial status and skin color. There are countries people talk about on HN and Reddit which are super welcoming, everybody is friendly, great for remote work, taking an…

Thanks for this comment. As a white-ish person who has mostly traveled with other white people, I was totally blind to this and made the same judgement: that these countries are just inherently welcoming to foreigners.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#197

Post by rastignack »

feupan wrote: post #190
thematrixturtle wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saudi Arabia is considerably worse on every aspect, it just gets even less press.

To be fair, SA isn’t touted as a dream destination for tourists, but quite the opposite: Tourists can’t enter. Dubai sells this luxury destination dream literally built by slaves.

That’s not true. Saudi Arabia wants to become a major touristic place.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#198

Post by feupan »

bitcharmer wrote: post #155
logicchains wrote: post #99

For everyone talking about the poor South Asian migrant workers in slave-like conditions there, note that most such workers would much rather be working in developed places like the US or Europe, but the immigration policies of those countries deny them that chance. Dubai is one of the few places in the region (and the world) that makes it very easy for anyone to come there and work, regardless of their race or natio…

Quoted post unavailable.

Well… it’s not like they didn’t fuck with a lot of these countries one way or another.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#199

Post by victor106 »

India has a similar law. You will be detained from leaving the country even if you are not the principal borrower and you've just stood as a guarantor for someone else's loan the bank can issue a lookout circular without even approaching a court. One of my offshore resources was arrested at the airport[1] even though he was not the pricipal borrower of the loan.

The funny thing about these incidents is that, all these countries want to have startup hubs, all the while forgetting that the very definition of a startup means risk taking where 9 out 10 companies go bankrupt.

One of the reasons I still think the west (UK, EU, US) are still some of the best countries to have a thriving business environment. You can be assured (at least a vast majority of the time) that no crazy laws like these would be enacted that would encroach on fundamental rights of a citizen over a civil issue.

[1] https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio...

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#200

Post by morelisp »

netsharc wrote: post #78
morelisp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it’s enjoyable for brief tourist/business visits, you’ve got literal slaves attending to you.

A redditor living there once responded to "why would you be okay living in a country with slave labor?" by asking the commenter: who made the stuff they owned. Who mined the minerals for your electronics (probably exploited miners), who made your clothes (probably underpaid Bangladeshis). So the difference between the average Westerner and a Dubaian is the distance the slaves are to the consumer.

I am also not exactly a fan of capitalism, and agree the line between slavery and wage slavery is thinner than most westerners think. But it's a lot easier (in every sense) for me not go party in Dubai than it is to live without pants or even a computer; just like a remedy of "just give them their passports back" is a lot easier to put into action than a way for Bangladeshi tailors to more fully capture their labor value on the global market.

Living there, as in being born there and having family and friendly connections, also presents a different set of moral and personal challenges vs. deciding to open a branch of my business there or taking a vacation there. In an abstract moral sense I'd like to divest myself of the US for a decade now, but that would be both materially dangerous until an alternative citizenship is effectively secured, and unfair to my family members who still live there.

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