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The Dubai Debt Trap

economist.com

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Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#161

Post by dspillett »

apohn wrote: post #60
retube wrote: post #5

All I ever hear is horror stories about this place: environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot. I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth.

I say this as somebody who lived in one of those Middle Eastern countries for a good period of my life. I'm not a white person and at that time I didn't have a US/European passport, so I didn't lead an extra privalaged life there. Here's what you can hear about the USA. 1)Endless suburban sprawl, resulting in massive environmental destruction. Illegal immigrants heavily involved in the construction industry, leading…

Also, 8: almost any idiot can own a gun & ammunition, and far too many idiots do.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#162

Post by ceejayoz »

logicchains wrote: post #129
ceejayoz wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-59845833 > The United Arab Emirates has announced that it will ban citizens who have not had three doses of a vaccine against Covid-19 from travelling abroad. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/uae-mandates-covid... > DUBAI, May 26 (Reuters) - The United Arab Emirates said vaccinations against COVID-19 will be mandatory for people attending all "live events" from June…

That's like saying Florida has vaccine passports because Biden said the US will. The individual emirates, like Dubai, have even more independence than US states. I actually live in Dubai and there's zero usage of vaccine passports for anything. The emirate of Abu Dhabi is very big on them, but Abu Dhabi is not Dubai in the same way Washington DC is not Texas.

Guess you didn't go to Expo 2020?

https://www.expo2020dubai.com/en/plan-your-visit/covid-19

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#163

Post by thematrixturtle »

logicchains wrote: post #99

For everyone talking about the poor South Asian migrant workers in slave-like conditions there, note that most such workers would much rather be working in developed places like the US or Europe, but the immigration policies of those countries deny them that chance. Dubai is one of the few places in the region (and the world) that makes it very easy for anyone to come there and work, regardless of their race or natio…

This is an awfully positive spin on things. Dubai does not encourage actual immigration, in fact it is virtually impossible to become a citizen. What they do have, and at massive scale, is a system where local companies can bring in what is effectively indentured labor, which will be immediately kicked out once their job is done.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#164

Post by dr_dshiv »

friedturkey wrote: post #153
laurent92 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are afraid of the lack of rule of law, there are not many countries we need to avoid. Japan has a 99.995% of inculpation after their police interview. And that has to do with the fact that their interview can lawfully last for 22 days, renewable. You can’t even avoid USA: 95% of jailmates are there upon self-admission of guilt without external proof, ie. without objective proof besides self-incrimination.

Man people really see some blog post about Japanese law by a person who doesn’t speak the language and think it’s some 1984 style country. In all honesty you can basically apologize out of a lot of crimes and police generally don’t bother with anything else unless there’s video evidence, they catch you in the act, or you’re a high profile person involved in a high profile act. Just never get caught with drugs in your…

What do the Japanese have against drugs?

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#166

Post by loljustice »

moralestapia wrote: post #79
logicchains wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is no rule of law In San Francisco if someone walks into your shop and steals less than $950 worth of goods there's pretty much nothing you can do about it; is that rule of law?

Yes, that is literally a written law that is being properly followed. Although the end result may be questionable, there is a legal framework by which disputes could be reasonably resolved, while trying to preserve the rights of all parties involved. In other places you have no such thing and, trust me, things are much worse.

[flagged]

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#167

Post by delecti »

logicchains wrote: post #124
delecti wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing slavery to vaccines is simply absurd. Slavery is one of the worst things humans do to each other, and vaccines are one of our greatest accomplishments as a species. You can go through life as a walking petri dish for dark age plagues if you'd like, but I think it's good for society to keep you away from the rest of us.

>Comparing slavery to vaccines is simply absurd Comparing the covid vaccines to previous vaccines is simply absurd. You know what other vaccines do? THEY PREVENT YOU FROM GETTING THE DISEASE! The covid vaccines do not do this! Even if you get the covid vaccine, you can still get covid and you can still die! And not only that, the covid vaccines are at least an order of magnitude more dangerous than previous vaccines…

> You know what other vaccines do? THEY PREVENT YOU FROM GETTING THE DISEASE

That's not even true. All vaccines just prime your immune system to be able to more effectively handle the pathogen. That reduces the likelihood of you spreading it, and reduces the severity of symptoms. Good vaccines to that to such an extent that both become negligible. For example, from the wikipedia page for the MMR vaccine, it provides a 97% protection against measles, and only 88% against mumps. That's enough to reduce the rate of spread low enough to basically stop endemic spread. The mRNA COVID vaccines aren't quite that effective, but they're still pretty good.

Anyone can submit anything to VAERS. I could right now go and submit to it that Moderna turned my skin green and gave me wings. The average rate of side effects is significantly lower with the vaccine than COVID itself, and that makes it a no brainer.

And I don't want compulsory medical treatment, nobody is being strapped down and injected, but I don't mind society imposing restrictions to require vaccinations to do certain activities. So far, the only time my vaccination status has been relevant is while traveling internationally, and when taking off my mask to eat in a restaurant. I'm fully in support of restrictions like those. To me that's like drunk driving laws: you can drink, but you can't drive while it would make you a danger to those around you.

We've had vaccine mandates for hundreds of years and aren't any closer to mandatory chip implants, so that seems to be a pretty an unjustifiable slippery slope argument. Vaccine mandates seem to be a pretty stable end-game of medical mandates.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#168

Post by fishtacos »

apohn wrote: post #131
Workaccount2 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the issue for me is that there are places where people greatly exaggerate their claims, and there are places where those seemingly exaggerated claims are legitimate. Given that, I don't think I have ever read anything good about the UAE, either editorial or comments from expats. Maybe from insta influencers who wanted to pad their hollow "luxury life" existance.

>Given that, I don't think I have ever read anything good about the UAE There are 10 million people living in the UAE, 90% of which are expats. Lots of them live comfortable lives in the sense that they do what most people do - get jobs, have kids, do their daily routine, meet their friends, and all that regular stuff. They live normal regular lives and find fulfillment in those things. It's no different than anywher…

How many of those expats are working slave-like conditions, is the greater point that ought to be discussed. (Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Philippines, Iraq, you name it).

If 10 percent of the country's population is native, they are surely benefiting from subsidized education, housing, preferential (read: racist) employment, free land, and so on.

It's VERY different from most places in the world, except for other sister nations that depend on oil wealth and have the same luxuries in immigrant exploitation.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#169

Post by mrwnmonm »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #47
JohnGB wrote: post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

After some bad experiences I will never visit an Arab country again. They'll have to do something against the sexism, constant heckling and the bad state of law before I even think about going there. Or they can do whatever they want, they don't have to change just for me. I'm 6 ft 6 and I have a blonde wife who's just a bit smaller. Even though we behaved very polite and dressed like locals it was like we had a big…

Are you western?

I get really bored hearing someone talking about us like this. While your knowledge about Arab countries comes from an all-inclusive trip to Tunisia or something.

The west always plays a big role in keeping dictators all over the place, who don't care about education or anything other than their chair. People are ignorant and if you look fancy or different, even if you are native, they will look at you like that. Not entirely your fault, but your politicians love it, and use their super powers to keep it as it is.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#170

Post by rayiner »

laurent92 wrote: post #102
JohnGB wrote: post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

If you are afraid of the lack of rule of law, there are not many countries we need to avoid. Japan has a 99.995% of inculpation after their police interview. And that has to do with the fact that their interview can lawfully last for 22 days, renewable. You can’t even avoid USA: 95% of jailmates are there upon self-admission of guilt without external proof, ie. without objective proof besides self-incrimination.

You’re incorrect as to the US, and I suspect as to Japan as well. Lots of criminals in America plead guilty, but that doesn’t mean that there’s no “external proof” of guilt. Cops are lazy and criminals are dumb. So what you end up with in nearly all cases is that cops make arrests in easy cases with tons of evidence. Confronted with the video tape, cell phone records, etc., the accused then pleads guilty. Rarely do you see the kind of cases you hear about on Podcasts where guilt turns on circumstantial evidences and confessions. I’ve seen this from inside the court system.

My wife had a homicide trial where prosecutors had a complete video tape record of the accused shooting the victim and driving back to his house. The trial was just cutting from one CCTV feed to the next as the accused drove around town. The jury found him guilty—because of course they did.

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