Avoid the Apple App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Avoid the Apple App Store

#161

Post by sleepybrett » Thu, Feb 17, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #150

mrtranscendence wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t mind the App Store removing shameless copies. But games with distinct features (eg offering Swedish) and which don’t use anyone else’s intellectual property should probably not face such an uphill battle. Further, they only pay such attention to Wordle clones because they were publicly called out on it. Other clones, even ones that violate IP laws, still get a free pass. And it’s not as if they’ve stopped all…

I'm not sure there's an easy solution here. I don't like copycats for more than one reason, but I don't think it's clear what criteria Apple should apply to determine whether an app is sufficiently distinct. If we considered language differences as sufficiently distinct, would that also mean allowing companies that watch for any new interesting idea and replicate it in language X?

Outside of wordle and other VERY POPULAR apps (a very narrow scope) it's impossible to expect that apple has a way to tell if any given submission is a copycat of anything.

Re: Avoid the Apple App Store

#162

Post by Steltek » Thu, Feb 17, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

pmarreck wrote: post #93

vinceguidry wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think Apple is doing this because they care about you, gentle user, then you will get burned, eventually, probably really badly, and you won't even have any kind of inkling as to why or how you could have avoided it. Behind the cutesy facade is a rapacious, consumer-hostile monster. The facade is paper-thin, and it's only a matter of time until you rub it the wrong way and it flakes off, then the monster will…

Alright, I have to respond to this. > Instead of offering developers a real userland, you get forced onto zsh because Apple would rather die than ship GPL later than v2. export BASH_SILENCE_DEPRECATION_WARNING=1 brew install bash # if homebrew is installed chsh `which bash` # if homebrew is configured correctly Done. I've been running without zsh just fine. oh-my-bash even exists! https://github.com/ohmybash/oh-my-ba…

Homebrew is not Apple so you're just reinforcing OP's point: you need to go to a 3rd party to get a CLI that's worth a damn.

Nor is Homebrew supported by Apple which is totally outrageous, given that without it, you might as well buy an iPad for how useful MacOS is.

Re: Avoid the Apple App Store

#163

Post by zenta » Thu, Feb 17, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

I built one of those Wordle clones that made it into the app store. Built it mostly to see how long it would take me to do it with flutter (it didn't take long). The app doesn't collect any data or connect to the interwebs.

Not really sure how I made it through the review process, but once it got through I was subsequently blocked from updating it, with the same policy cited as the OP.

So now it's up there with a double letter bug, the stock flutter icon, and 80k downloads :)

Side note: I did get a takedown notice, which I was expecting, but it wasn't from the NYT. It was from a company purporting to hold trademarks for lingo for both look and feel and game mechanics. I tried to contact them but nobody has responded, and it actually looks like the trademark was abandoned. Plus, you can't trademark a game mechanic afaik.

Re: Avoid the Apple App Store

#164

Post by hinkley » Thu, Feb 17, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

tragictrash wrote: post #4

This is why I'll never buy an apple device. I know Google does it too, but apple is worse.

A decade later, it still remains the case that most of the users who are willing to spend money are on the Apple platform.

On the question of whether Apple should be more like Google, the answer has again and again, from Apple, from pundits, from financial analysis been 'oh hell no'.

You are free not to use Apple. The fact that people keep talking about how they aren't using apple isn't the freedom flag waving you think it is. If you all have to keep bringing it up then it's living rent-free in your head. I don't know if it's jealousy, or wanting to have your cake and eat it to, or what else is going on. I don't use Facebook, but you don't hear me talking about it all the time (talking about having to deal with Facebook users is another matter).

In retail 'customers' who don't buy anything aren't customers. They are 'loitering' and many companies have a policy for encouraging people who are not actually shopping to leave. Traffic that does not result in revenue is overhead at best, opportunity cost at worst. A certain amount of overhead has always been tolerated as goodwill or advertising, but in any arena of life there is always someone who tries to take advantage of goodwill efforts.

Customers who don't use apps at all are fine. They aren't costing us anything. Customers that buy lots of apps are great. Customers who just want free stuff all the time are bad news. Especially because they become more expensive when the free stuff ends up causing them problems, which they feel entitled to complain about. Tech support calls are more expensive than most of us realize.

Re: Avoid the Apple App Store

#165

Post by mistersquid » Thu, Feb 17, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

bastardoperator wrote: post #109

vinceguidry wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think Apple is doing this because they care about you, gentle user, then you will get burned, eventually, probably really badly, and you won't even have any kind of inkling as to why or how you could have avoided it. Behind the cutesy facade is a rapacious, consumer-hostile monster. The facade is paper-thin, and it's only a matter of time until you rub it the wrong way and it flakes off, then the monster will…

I feel like you hate Apple more than Apple hates me. Your boogieman analogy is over the top or laughable. Also: bash --version GNU bash, version 5.1.16(1)-release (x86_64-apple-darwin21.1.0)

You may be running non-standard bash.

In macOS Monterey 12.2.1:

  ┍ … Thu Feb 17 09:09:44[~] 
  ┕ which bash
  /bin/bash

  ┍ … Thu Feb 17 09:10:25[~] 
  ┕ bash --version
  GNU bash, version 3.2.57(1)-release (x86_64-apple-darwin21)
  Copyright (C) 2007 Free Software Foundation, Inc.

Re: Avoid the Apple App Store

#166

Post by dcow » Thu, Feb 17, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

This is frankly racist and it really pisses me off.

The fact is, despite everything else and even in face of wanting to keep a storefront free of low value clones and fads, which is understandable, Swedish people cannot play Wordle and this derivative work brings that experience to people who don’t have it. It’s NOT a copycat for them.

Apple needs a policy revision and consistent guidelines for applying the copycat rules so they don’t exclude entire countries and cultures from enjoyable experiences. Period.

Re: Avoid the Apple App Store

#167

Post by amelius » Thu, Feb 17, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

sleepybrett wrote: post #155

amelius wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not ideologically opposed to the idea of a walled-garden phone (though my preference would be to have the ability to sideload). The App-Store is, in this context, merely a Content Filter. So why not allow multiple content filters?

Because it creates customer confusion and anger when they hit the genius bar with a phone that is bricked because the customer used a non-apple appstore to install software that resulted in a bricked phone. It further causes apple support increased support costs when they have to prove that it wasn't their fault. Perhaps if apple had approval on those third-party appstores and held them to a standard and charged push…

Apple should just provide proper sandboxing.

If some alternative appstore manages to break the sandbox, then they have different problems.

The problem is not that Apple can't make this happen. The problem is that they don't want it.

Re: Avoid the Apple App Store

#168

Post by dcow » Thu, Feb 17, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

Humdeee wrote: post #154

dcow wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can’t be a copy if it offers distinct features, which the OP lays out factually. It’s not arguable. It’s a fact that OPs game supports languages that the original web app doesn’t. That alone even ignoring the other distinctions should indicate that it is not a clone. You can’t just say “that feature doesn't matter to me because I don’t speak Swedish so it doesn't exist”. You’re deliberately ignoring reality and it…

Unfortunately, they're obviously not distinct enough in Apple's eyes. Also, Swedish or any nationality is not a race, I would drop that train of thought altogether. We have no indication of the many, many other copycat apps that were let through may also already support Swedish. So if that low hanging fruit is covered, scratch that as a distinct feature...

That’s why I put it in quotes. Point is you cannot categorically exclude an entire population of people from an experience.

I don't care what Apple or you think. I’m calling both you out for being insensitive or at best oblivious douchbags and telling you you’re wrong. You are free to disagree but your comment is going dangerously grey so citation needed on your assumption about how many others agree with you.

Re: Avoid the Apple App Store

#169

Post by callalex » Thu, Feb 17, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #92

aaomidi wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I on the other hand really am excited. Apple devices turn into expensive ewaste when a country gets sanctioned by the US. There are millions of apple phones in Iran, that can't do anything other than browse the web. There are millions of talented developers in the world that have to avoid iOS because of the $100 fee. Anyway I'm really really really excited for being able to use a general computer as a general compute…

So it’s the $100 a year fee that stops “talented developers” who would also have to have a phone that costs at least $400 and a computer that costs at least $700?

Used and repaired hardware is very common in less wealthy areas.

Re: Avoid the Apple App Store

#170

Post by Someone » Thu, Feb 17, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

s17n wrote: post #148

mrtranscendence wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there’s nothing illegal per se about duplicating the gameplay of Wordle. It should only be an issue when, say, assets are stolen, or if the developers use the similarity to Wordle to trick users into making in-app purchases.

Copying apps isn't illegal, but it's annoying and banning the practice seems like a good policy. I think the problem boils down to two things: 1. Apple doesn't actually have a "no copycat apps" policy, instead its an unwritten and inconsistently enforced rule 2. In this case, providing a Swedish version of the game is actually good for users and arguably should be encouraged

> Apple doesn't actually have a "no copycat apps" policy

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#cop...:

4.1 Copycats

Come up with your own ideas. We know you have them, so make yours come to life. Don’t simply copy the latest popular app on the App Store, or make some minor changes to another app’s name or UI and pass it off as your own. In addition to risking an intellectual property infringement claim, it makes the App Store harder to navigate and just isn’t fair to your fellow developers.