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U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#171

Post by goda90 »

jahnu wrote: post #126
tw3464575686 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Small-scale sustainable farms produce more food per hectare than industrial farming. However, they are usually less profitable, since they need more manpower per hectare. Efficiency in terms of money earned is not the same as efficiency in terms of food produced, and with a growing population and a diminishing area of arable land, one seems more critical than the other, especially when you consider that i…

> Small-scale sustainable farms produce more food per hectare than industrial farming. I thought that was only true in poor and developing countries but that large industrial farms in highly developed nations produced way more than everybody else. Have you a source you could share as this is a very interesting point?

Gabe Brown claims he can get more calories per acre than monoculture farms[0]. He also claims that it's more thought, but not much more physical work overall. His profits probably depend somewhat on premium pricing that wouldn't hold up if everyone followed his model, but a shift in subsidies could help that.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yPjoh9YJMk

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#172

Post by megaman821 »

gruez wrote: post #122
AniseAbyss wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought the GOP hates welfare programs...

As always, a party's political beliefs are more complicated than being pro-[thing] or anti-[thing]. To steelman the GOP, I'd say that they're against welfare for individuals because for the most part they're transfer payments that don't require any "work" to obtain (short of filling out some forms). They think that's bad because it encourages laziness. To my knowledge farm subsidies aren't implemented that way. They'…

Also the US is terrible at transitions. When manufacturing went overseas, we left the factory workers high and dry. We can end the corn subsidies while providing income and support for farmers to transition to other crops, but that starts to look more like traditional welfare.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#173

Post by jahnu »

tw3464575686 wrote: post #149
jahnu wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Small-scale sustainable farms produce more food per hectare than industrial farming. I thought that was only true in poor and developing countries but that large industrial farms in highly developed nations produced way more than everybody else. Have you a source you could share as this is a very interesting point?

Ha, no, you're right. Don't remember were i first heard it, but looking for the sources now, it seems that small farms are more productive in poor countries, but less productive than industrial farms in developed nations. However, the source i found for that [0] doesn't mention what techniques are used, and seems to only focus on size. So now i'm curious if there is reliable data looking at differences in yield betwe…

Good article, that.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#174

Post by dillonkp »

leethargo wrote: post #52
spiderfarmer wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The romantic view people have of peasant farms is ruining all discourse about agriculture. I blame the books people read to toddlers. Peasant farms were labor intensive, disease ridden, high risk, low reward businesses that shortened lives and ruined families. But somehow for a lot of people this episode in the history of farming is seen as the optimal blueprint for sustainable farming. They ignore the fact that all…

Similar with the artificial battle front between organic vs conventional/industrial, where each side claims the solution to sustainable food production, but no common ground is allowed. By the way, not all children's books are equally naive. We've recently found a nice one [1] (in German) which shows small- and large-scale farms side-by-side, in a brutally honest way (including butchering). [1] https://www.amazon.com…

This looks like a great book! Getting back to refreshing my dormant German, have any other good books like this? - Thanks!

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#175

Post by goda90 »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #21
jillesvangurp wrote: post #12

Corn in the US is mostly used for harmful purposes. It's used for producing fodder for intensive cattle farming (which of course produces lots of CO2). It's used for biofuel production, which as the article observes releases more CO2 than that it saves. And it's used for producing corn syrup which is an ingredient that nobody needs in their diet. The rest, which would be usage for e.g. corn bread or other staples of…

It's kinda hard to kill those subsidies when farmers have been used to them for 50 years, and it's a big political sticking point. The USDA exists to create more export crops. For the US, this might challenge that. That's also why the FDA can never rule that sugar or HFCS is harmful, it's a major American product, and that would be admitting that it's faulty.

What we need is shifting subsidies. Change the incentives year over year so farmer's can adapt. Maybe add some budget to incentivize faster changing without punishing the slower movers. Throw resources towards training and retooling.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#176

Post by tw3464575686 »

goda90 wrote: post #171
jahnu wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Small-scale sustainable farms produce more food per hectare than industrial farming. I thought that was only true in poor and developing countries but that large industrial farms in highly developed nations produced way more than everybody else. Have you a source you could share as this is a very interesting point?

Gabe Brown claims he can get more calories per acre than monoculture farms[0]. He also claims that it's more thought, but not much more physical work overall. His profits probably depend somewhat on premium pricing that wouldn't hold up if everyone followed his model, but a shift in subsidies could help that. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yPjoh9YJMk

Yes, i found several people making that claim (or similar). Couldn't find any hard data to back it up, though (although i didn't search too hard since i'm at work :P)

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#177

Post by ThinkingGuy »

evancoop wrote: post #103

How many products are subsidized on one and and regulated on the other? Corn is subsidized in production, but then when those subsidies yield health-hindering quantities of cheap sweetener (corn syrup), we attempt to regulate its application and consumption. Now, we'll subsidize growth again, but then regulate the greenhouse emissions on the other. It is one thing for government regulation to address externalities (g…

I don't believe it's the case any more, but for years the US government funded anti-smoking campaigns while simultaneously subsidizing tobacco farming.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#178

Post by dfxm12 »

AniseAbyss wrote: post #80
njarboe wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iowa has the first primary every year in the US[1]. Iowa produces more corn than any state[2] while being 32nd in population. Corn is very important to people in Iowa and as long as the first two facts remain the same, corn will continue to be highly subsidized and supported in other ways by the US government. [1] https://www.uspresidentialelectionnews.com/2024-primary-sche... [2] https://www.cropprophet.com/us-corn-…

I always thought the GOP hates welfare programs...

Nominally, maybe, but in practice, they're all about corporate welfare, including for big ag.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#179

Post by csee »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #12

Corn in the US is mostly used for harmful purposes. It's used for producing fodder for intensive cattle farming (which of course produces lots of CO2). It's used for biofuel production, which as the article observes releases more CO2 than that it saves. And it's used for producing corn syrup which is an ingredient that nobody needs in their diet. The rest, which would be usage for e.g. corn bread or other staples of…

Also sugar tarrifs which makes the susbtitute to HFCS artificially more expensive. It's government distortion top to bottom.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#180

Post by HWR_14 »

mrfusion wrote: post #91
njarboe wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iowa has the first primary every year in the US[1]. Iowa produces more corn than any state[2] while being 32nd in population. Corn is very important to people in Iowa and as long as the first two facts remain the same, corn will continue to be highly subsidized and supported in other ways by the US government. [1] https://www.uspresidentialelectionnews.com/2024-primary-sche... [2] https://www.cropprophet.com/us-corn-…

Why doesn’t another state move its primary up? It seems like an easy way to get more influence?

Both major political parties have passed rules that any state the precedes Iowa and New Hampshire will have their number of delegates (aka votes) cut to 1. That is, if they try, their votes literally won't count (except as a tie breaker).
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