U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#151

Post by giantg2 » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 3:11 PM UTC

phil21 wrote: post #129

giantg2 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but if I remember correctly, actual farm operations were profitable, right? The marketing is just extra, or what it evolved into. Don't get me wrong - small farms are a lot of work. For the most part, at least one member of the family has to have an outside job with benefits just due to healthcare costs. But it can make some money. I hope to have a small farm as a "retirement" plan. It would mostly be an apiary…

> Yeah, but if I remember correctly, actual farm operations were profitable, right? The marketing is just extra, or what it evolved into. Not really, there are different levels of profitable. Some extremely efficient operations can be profitable at scale, but no one is getting rich. The places like you describe (have half a cow from one in my freezer now, from just outside Chicago) operate on marketing to upscale cus…

I have a small apiary currently, so I understand the work and costs to a degree.

As a retirement "job", it could provide supplemental income. That's my goal.

If I'm not doing that, then what am I doing? I hate my job and don't see anything better. At least I could be physical rather than squander my health like my job requires now. Maybe make some money to cover hobby expenses, or use the land to save money by growing stuff for myself. Otherwise, I might as well sit in front of a TV in some suburban house while eating myself to death.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#152

Post by rhino369 » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 3:12 PM UTC

depereo wrote: post #25

assttoasstmgr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kill the subsidies and that whole industry slowly dies. That would be a good thing. Maybe repurpose the subsidies to have those farmers do something that actually is more productive and less harmful. So once we've put all the farmers out of work and declared success, what do you suggest they do that is "more productive"? Should they lease their corn fields to crypto bros?

....wheat? Rye? Any other similar staple crop? It doesn't have to be some extreme shut down, it can be a transition to something better for society.

Why are other grains better for society? If Iowa, Illinois, and Nebraska farmed Rye instead, we'd be putting Rye based ethanol in our gas instead.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#153

Post by giantg2 » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 3:14 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #123

giantg2 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on how you look at it. Agriculture generally requires a lot of water. Much of this corn is being irrigated with water from the aquifers. Sustainable farming is good, but I don't think we do very much of it. I wonder if there's any evidence that we can sustainably support 8 billion people. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/12/kansas-aqu...

>I wonder if there's any evidence that we can sustainably support 8 billion people. it depends on the type of lifestyle you're willing to have and how much % of the GDP you're willing to pour into it. I'm sure you can sustainably feed all 8 billion people if we poured 50% of our GDP into food production and we only ate rice and beans.

"it depends on the type of lifestyle you're willing to have"

Not just oneself, but entire nations. Scarcity of resources have historically been a major cause of wars. I don't see the world coming to a consensus on lifestyle any time soon.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#154

Post by jtbayly » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 3:16 PM UTC

jillesvangurp wrote: post #12

Corn in the US is mostly used for harmful purposes. It's used for producing fodder for intensive cattle farming (which of course produces lots of CO2). It's used for biofuel production, which as the article observes releases more CO2 than that it saves. And it's used for producing corn syrup which is an ingredient that nobody needs in their diet. The rest, which would be usage for e.g. corn bread or other staples of…

I can agree with doing away with or changing the subsidies, but the rest of your comment, unilaterally declaring meat to be bad, corn syrup to be universally bad, and for some reason declaring that "organic" whatever that means today, makes something better somehow, is just a bunch of today's talking points.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#155

Post by gpapilion » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 3:16 PM UTC

Way back when I read The Hydrogen Economy, the author claimed something like 4 calorie investment for every calorie we pulled out of the ground for ethanol. I think is more a criticism of the Nixon era green revolution, when large scale chemical fertilizers came into use, since these are largely petro chemical products.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#156

Post by mastax » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

pibechorro wrote: post #99

jillesvangurp wrote: post #12

Corn in the US is mostly used for harmful purposes. It's used for producing fodder for intensive cattle farming (which of course produces lots of CO2). It's used for biofuel production, which as the article observes releases more CO2 than that it saves. And it's used for producing corn syrup which is an ingredient that nobody needs in their diet. The rest, which would be usage for e.g. corn bread or other staples of…

Subcidies are 90% of the reason our country is turning to shit. It leads to corruption, massive distortions and zombie companies that only exist as parasites on tax payers. From the ballooning student debt, to the ridiculous military industry, to prisons being at record numbers, etc. We need a lean and efficient economy which functions "as is", a true and fair free market. Politics should have close to no impact on i…

Don't forget high tariffs and the Jones act!

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#157

Post by spenrose » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 3:19 PM UTC

This appears to be the source: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ac2e35/...

Central claim: "Their revisions most profoundly reduce predicted land use change (LUC) emissions, for which they propose a central estimate that is roughly half the smallest comparable value they review (figure 1). This LUC estimate represents the midpoint of (a) values retained after filtering the predictions of past studies based on a set of unfounded criteria; and (b) a new estimate they generate for domestic (i.e. U.S.) LUC emissions. The filter the authors apply endorses a singular means of LUC assessment which they assert as the ‘best practice’ despite a recent unacknowledged review (Malins et al 2020 J. Clean. Prod. 258 120716) that shows this method almost certainly underestimates LUC. Moreover, their domestic C intensity estimate surprisingly suggests that cropland expansion newly sequesters soil C, counter to ecological theory and empirical evidence. These issues, among others, prove to grossly underestimate the C intensity of corn-grain ethanol and mischaracterize the state of our science at the risk of perversely affecting policy outcomes."

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#158

Post by gtk40 » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 3:25 PM UTC

jillesvangurp wrote: post #12

Corn in the US is mostly used for harmful purposes. It's used for producing fodder for intensive cattle farming (which of course produces lots of CO2). It's used for biofuel production, which as the article observes releases more CO2 than that it saves. And it's used for producing corn syrup which is an ingredient that nobody needs in their diet. The rest, which would be usage for e.g. corn bread or other staples of…

That's helpful. Whenever I hear people rail against corn, I think of all the corn dishes I love as a southerner. Cornbread, grits, corn on the cobb, and at Thanksgiving, corn pudding. My wife has got me to like polenta as well. But those aren't the problems.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#159

Post by zzzeek » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 3:25 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #122

AniseAbyss wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought the GOP hates welfare programs...

As always, a party's political beliefs are more complicated than being pro-[thing] or anti-[thing]. To steelman the GOP, I'd say that they're against welfare for individuals because for the most part they're transfer payments that don't require any "work" to obtain (short of filling out some forms). They think that's bad because it encourages laziness. To my knowledge farm subsidies aren't implemented that way. They'…

you could argue those corn farmers are too lazy to figure out a crop that is actually beneficial to society and are comfortable resting in their subsidized bubble.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#160

Post by alistairSH » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 3:25 PM UTC

bsenftner wrote: post #98

njarboe wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iowa has the first primary every year in the US[1]. Iowa produces more corn than any state[2] while being 32nd in population. Corn is very important to people in Iowa and as long as the first two facts remain the same, corn will continue to be highly subsidized and supported in other ways by the US government. [1] https://www.uspresidentialelectionnews.com/2024-primary-sche... [2] https://www.cropprophet.com/us-corn-…

Iowa. Former Iowans here. The nation's politics have screwed Iowa, with it being the first primary state all manner of overt attempts of political favoritism occurs in there. The economy is screwed left, right, and sideways with all the attempts at political favoritism. And the intellectual mind there is equally turned around with large helpings of religious infringement on world views, and a material amount of corpo…

The nation's politics have screwed Iowa

Iowa's own laws have screwed Iowa. State law mandates the caucus occur at least eight days prior to any other state's proceedings (similarly, NH law mandates they be the first primary election). The DNC and RNC might also like it that way, but both states are complicit.