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Trudeau announces intention to freeze bank accounts of protestors

bbc.com

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Re: Trudeau announces intention to freeze bank accounts of protestors

#101

Post by LudwigNagasena »

young_unixer wrote: post #17

Is there some point at which people will start rejecting this arbitrary and excessive exercise of power? This sets a dangerous precedent for a country that until now we considered a liberal democracy with freedom and respect for individual rights. I wonder if we're all headed to a point where state control and erosion of freedom are widely accepted by the public in our western democracies.

The precedents have been set. It is okay if my guys do it, it is not okay if your guys do it. That's all there is to it. Everything else is pure rhetoric that only exists as a symbol of normality and tradition just like powerless monarchs in European countries.

Re: Trudeau announces intention to freeze bank accounts of protestors

#102

Post by failedengineer »

adhoc_slime wrote: post #89
failedengineer wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of the money was foreign. edit: and is not being funneled to the actual protestors. The people recently arrested tried to get some to use for legal fees. No bueno. yeah, yeah, no citation. Pretty hard to cite facebook posts that were removed because of subject matter.

Is the money being foreign necessarily an inditement of the crowd funding campaign? The money came from 93,000 donations according to the article. Really that just says that it had global traction.

The foreign money isn't great, but it's not really an inditement.

The money coming in from all over, going to unknown persons, not being distributed to protestors who requested funding for gas/food/legal fees associated with the protest, the $1m withdrawal earlier with no (publically, at least) known trail... all that together is kind of a problem for anyone involved.

Re: Trudeau announces intention to freeze bank accounts of protestors

#103

Post by Wolfenstein98k »

Hnus wrote: post #45
InsomniacL wrote: post #4

At what point does peaceful protest become none-peaceful through the consequences of the protesters actions? I.e Gluing yourself to the road could be considered peaceful however if you're doing it outside the A&E Ambulance entrance to a hospital is it still peaceful? That's an extreme example however in this case can it still be considered peaceful considering the economic,.. etc impact on peoples lives?

The whole point of protesting is to make ppl uncomfortable. Activists take that discomfort w/the status quo & advocate for concrete policy changes…To folks who complain protest demands make others uncomfortable…that’s the point.

While I don't disagree, "that's the point" is not a great argument. It's simply an explanation.

If someone is caught in the act of cheating, it doesn't help if they say "he just wanted some action on the side!"

The problem is the cheating, the reason for cheating doesn't make it acceptable.

You have effectively just stated that "oh don't worry he meant to cheat."

Re: Trudeau announces intention to freeze bank accounts of protestors

#104

Post by Chris2048 »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #73
thereddaikon wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To further complicate the matter, protests are completely ineffectual if they do not impact others in some way. Its easy to say that protesters should be considerate and not get in the way. But if they do that then their message is easy to ignore. Protest by nature must be civil disobedience to have any real effect. What troubles me in this regard is that the Canadian government in general, and Trudeau in particular,…

I disagree, the riots in America perpetrated by antifa had a significant policy shift and public opinion impact. The burning of Kenosha and other cities, was probably the only time a protest in modern history has had an effect on public policy.

But, didn't it (the actions of BLM/antifa) have a negative effect on public opinion?

Re: Trudeau announces intention to freeze bank accounts of protestors

#105

Post by ben_w »

mimikatz wrote: post #24
tyleo wrote: post #3

I’d like to expand on some thoughts I had in another thread that provoked some interesting discussion: If the protests are peaceful, the government should not shut them down. But at what point do the economic impacts of a protest cross a line such that they aren’t peaceful? I personally feel that the slippery slope runs in both directions: * The government expanding its power to block more protests is a slippery slop…

Protestors should protest legally. They shouldn't block roads. They shouldn't break windows. They shouldn't burn buildings. When they don't they should be broken up/arrested/charged with the crimes they break. This goes for all sides.

As a general statement I agree, but there can be exceptions.

I absolutely don’t believe any of the exception I would list actually apply in this case — and even if I did I would still apply the “arrest people who break the law” part because of how fundamentally important I regard rule of law — but there are some occasions (most civil rights battles, wars for independence) where facing a conviction is worth it because the system won’t even take you seriously otherwise.

Re: Trudeau announces intention to freeze bank accounts of protestors

#106

Post by Wolfenstein98k »

pupppet wrote: post #54
verisimi wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because the corporate-owned media reports their cause in a negative light, doesn't mean public opinion has turned on them. In fact people were lining the streets as they made their way to Ottawa.

That recent hack gave light to only 29% of total donations coming from Canadians, they are not widely supported no matter what the HN Libertarian slant wants you to believe.

Which recent hack?

A news article shared in this thread suggested 51% came from Canada.

The foreign donations are small amounts spread across many donors.

It doesn't exactly appear like Uncle Vlad is sending them billions of rubles or something.

Re: Trudeau announces intention to freeze bank accounts of protestors

#107

Post by Chris2048 »

Hnus wrote: post #45
InsomniacL wrote: post #4

At what point does peaceful protest become none-peaceful through the consequences of the protesters actions? I.e Gluing yourself to the road could be considered peaceful however if you're doing it outside the A&E Ambulance entrance to a hospital is it still peaceful? That's an extreme example however in this case can it still be considered peaceful considering the economic,.. etc impact on peoples lives?

The whole point of protesting is to make ppl uncomfortable. Activists take that discomfort w/the status quo & advocate for concrete policy changes…To folks who complain protest demands make others uncomfortable…that’s the point.

The post you are responding too never used the term "uncomfortable" which is a pretty watered-down term to describe someone unable to get medical service because ambulances can't get through. Would you describe murder as "uncomfortable"?

Re: Trudeau announces intention to freeze bank accounts of protestors

#108

Post by Wolfenstein98k »

pfisch wrote: post #53
Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are vaccinated people there too. Don't fall for the "team sport" false dichotomy - there are many who are rational enough to get vaccinated but still largely side with the "less / less broad restrictions" side of the debate. (For instance, I am vaxxed, extremely pro-vax, and quite anti-restriction. Give everyone a chance to get vaxxed, even make it free - but then let them manage their risk from there. Even the…

Are you using your truck to block the economy of Canada right now? Have you participated in the protests with your actual body in any way? Do you even live in Canada or do you represent the interests of another country entirely?

Do you eat with chopsticks? Have you participated in a blood ritual? Do you even live north of the equator or do you represent the interests of another hemisphere entirely?

Are we just asking each other preposterous questions?!

Re: Trudeau announces intention to freeze bank accounts of protestors

#109

Post by ben_w »

Chris2048 wrote: post #94
bryanlarsen wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of an escalated protest is being willing to accept the consequences. If you park illegally, you expect to get a parking ticket, protest or no. You expect your vehicle to get towed. If you defy a court injunction, you expect to spend the night in jail. The people chaining themselves to trees expect to get arrested and spend time in jail. They also expect that their time in jail will help their cause. B…

What if they make up new laws?

A government? Making up laws? I think that’s literally called “a day ending in ‘y’”.

You may or may not have a higher power to defend you against bad laws, depending on your constitution and/or your government being e.g. treaty bound to an institution equivalent to the European Court of Human Rights.

Re: Trudeau announces intention to freeze bank accounts of protestors

#110

Post by Wolfenstein98k »

kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #99
Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

States should. A lot of their power rests on their legitimacy. They can collapse fast once that erodes. If they cannot even keep the centre of the capital moving, seemingly ever again, the value of the currency can plummet quite quickly as people decide to move wealth into less liquid assets (or simply cash from other countries). This seems far-fetched, but it did in the Weimar Republic too, until it became apparent…

I think they should be strong in upholding the law, but not in bossing their citizens around.

To those falling foul of the law, they feel like the same thing.

(I agree, just pointing out that the line gets muddy depending on which side you're on. A collapse of the state can be one of the worst things imaginable, in net terms.)

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