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Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#841

Post by hoseja »

panta wrote: post #374
bradyo wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With enough investment, Firefox could also innovate and introduce features that aren't in Chrome or Safari to actually win users back

It's not user-facing features that move users from one browser to another, it's the number of websites they use that don't break with one or the other.

I have not seen an important website genuinely break in a long time. Certainly not enough to build any sort of decision heuristic. Who are these people who have websites break all the time on Firefox but not in Chrome so much it drives them from one to another?

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#842

Post by chasil »

kasabali wrote: post #817
chasil wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From this perspective, the RPM from one of RedHat's derivatives would be the ideal answer - a long term support release. As far as I know, such lengthy support terms do not exist for any Windows releases. Firefox on RedHat 8 will stay as it is until 2029.

This claim is totally fiction. RedHat has no magic Mozilla sauce, they simply ship Firefox ESR and upgrade it every year. You'll have the same breakage in the end, just yearly instead of monthly.

Yes, because "big updates" regularly trash Firefox in Red Hat.

This happens all the time.

What a fiction indeed.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#843

Post by account42 »

tedivm wrote: post #113
nwah1 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could pivot to compete with the Big Tech conglomerates in general. Provide their own suite of integrated tools, search engines, communication platforms, and so on. But with a privacy-focused and ad-free approach. DuckDuckGo already proved there is an appetite for something like this. They could go further, and remain relevant and viable in the way that DDG is, even if they never again are the most popular browse…

They get most of their money from advertising deals with those major companies (such as by putting google in as the default search engine). Competing against them would likely result in those companies removing the advertising dollars and tanking the business.

Mozilla getting rid of the Google default search engine deal would be the best thing that ould happen to Firefox. That money is not free, it is (amongs other things) a shackle that keeps Firefox from going too far against Google's interests.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#844

Post by mhitza »

grey_earthling wrote: post #834
mhitza wrote: post #798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure from which perspective your comment comes from. dnf update or dnfdragora updates (if you prefer a GUI) are all done while the system is running. Sure, distribution upgrades nowadays are just like Windows update requiring a system reboot and a black screen with a useless progress bar to stare at (that's also a pretty annoying relatively recent addition). GNOME is not my cup of tea. And until flatpak delivers…

> Not sure from which perspective your comment comes from. dnf update or dnfdragora updates (if you prefer a GUI) are all done while the system is running. Fedora doesn't recommend doing updates that way :) See https://fedoramagazine.org/offline-updates-and-fedora-35/ > Sure, distribution upgrades nowadays are just like Windows update requiring a system reboot and a black screen with a useless progress bar to stare a…

It's cool, I get it. You find these adequate solutions to existing problems. But they are replacements of some issues for new issues. That's why I'm not onboard with Redhat vision for a Linux desktop, that's why I stay away from GNOME, Flatpak, rpm-ostree distro flavours. They are almost an 80% of something, then a coin toss away of being deprecated/ignored.

Those tools are not teaching me how to fish, but how to carve out and build a fish rod, fish anatomy, and anything in between. When all I want is the proverbial fish.

Things got dicier in the server space since the IBM acquisition, e.g. RedHat 8 experience was anything but good, and their entry into the container space with UBIs. A pile of things breaking, when switching the Dockerfile from CentOS to RedHat. Even more ridiculous things, like RedHat 8 offering a license that allows X install for free, but then the ISO wasn't even distributed by torrent file and the download speed for me in EU was under 100KBps.

But anyway, here I am ranting about RedHat, when I didn't want to. My main complaint is still with Firefox, it wants me to restart the browser but I can use the existing tabs just fine for any web browsing. Nothing is bricked by the update, just Firefox deciding when I should restart my browser, just like the very vague Windows experience I left so long ago.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#845

Post by account42 »

sfink wrote: post #446
mhitza wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP, but I consider it a soft crash every time I update Firefox in my OS, and it won't allow me to spawn new tabs until I restart Firefox. Annoying behavior they've included a couple years back.

If I understand what you're reporting correctly, then that's something your OS "included a couple of years back". If you install Firefox from Mozilla's site, it won't have these update problems. What's happening is that your package manager is swapping Firefox's bits out from under it while it's running. Firefox's built-in update system doesn't do that. Which is not to say that I think you shouldn't be using a packag…

I don't think the package managers are at fault here and this would be much more easily fixed in Firefox itself by not touching the filesystem after Firefox starts - resources are already bundled so you only need to keep a handle open (package managers don't change file contents but replace what the filename points to) and only fork instead of executing new processes (keep a pristine process running to fork from if you want).

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#846

Post by account42 »

troyvit wrote: post #622
selfhoster11 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a relevant browser. The last time I have seen Safari installed on a Windows machine was likely 2013-14, if not earlier. It doesn't have an Android version (which makes it less relevant on smartphones). It doesn't support Linux, which lots of the power user/tech trailblazer crowd is using. It's not open source, unlike Firefox or Chromium. It lags in features (which to be fair, isn't bad when they impact priva…

A lot of people use it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebKit#Installed_base I mean nobody super exciting, but Steam uses it for their software, Adobe CSS uses some of it, etc. It's more than an Apple thing. [Edit]: Sorry, nobody outside Apple uses Safari, but a lot of people outside of Apple use WebKit, Safari's engine.

Steam uses CEF aka *Chromium* Embedded Framework. If the current version is still WebKit then its only because they haven't updated to Blink yet.

It is also primarily there to render Steam and steampowered.com so not very relevant to keeping web standards in check.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#847

Post by account42 »

carapace wrote: post #127
Shared404 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they need to answer the question, why should Firefox exist? If there is no compelling reason, well, there you go. If there is, double down on that make that reason shine. Unfortunately, that reason (browser engine diversity)is compelling to people who understand the situation, but not general consumers - and it's impossible to make general consumers care, unless maybe Firefox went for an edgy "rebel against the man"…

I feel like I understand the situation but I'm doubtful that browser engine diversity is compelling. It seems like duplicate effort. As long as Chromium accepts pull requests, what's the problem with browser monoculture? (In case it's not clear, I'm asking in earnest. I'm not trolling.) - - - - edit: Okay, pull requests alone are not enough, but the objections y'all are raising seem like they could all be answered by…

> Okay, pull requests alone are not enough, but the objections y'all are raising seem like they could all be answered by forking, no? If Google upsets their users then a different browser has a chance to gain users:

Forking is an uphill battle starting at 0% market share, which is less than Firefox has now.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#848

Post by commandlinefan »

acheron wrote: post #738
commandlinefan wrote: post #107

Well, I quit using it/supporting it because of their politics. So maybe get out of politics and focus on software?

You think Google's politics are better than Mozilla's?

No, they're worse. I'm using Brave + DDG - I can't completely de-google-ify, but I can try.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#849

Post by account42 »

samwillis wrote: post #346
selfhoster11 wrote: post #2

They should focus on saving Firefox. - Cut out all (or at the very least, most) initiatives that don't serve the goal of promoting Firefox's market share or sustainability going forward - Donate the major money drains that aren't Firefox to the Apache Foundation or another worthy custodian - Fire all inessential staff that don't want to work on Firefox. - Get a CEO/upper management that are in it for the passion, not…

Agree with this. I feel they should start trying to out “out innovate” the other browser developers. Stop playing politics, which Google will always win, and just start making new “cool shit” that developers want to use! Hire the best innovative thinkers in the industry and set them free to invent browser apis for developers to use. Also, they should be attacking things like electron, and “hybrid” mobile app developm…

> Hire the best innovative thinkers in the industry and set them free to invent browser apis for developers to use.

I think they should be doing the opposite: Adding features the users want to use and keeping the web as simple as they can get away with. Google is already busy giving web developers whatever APIs they want, that is not a fight Firefox can win.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#850

Post by account42 »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #773
selfhoster11 wrote: post #2

They should focus on saving Firefox. - Cut out all (or at the very least, most) initiatives that don't serve the goal of promoting Firefox's market share or sustainability going forward - Donate the major money drains that aren't Firefox to the Apache Foundation or another worthy custodian - Fire all inessential staff that don't want to work on Firefox. - Get a CEO/upper management that are in it for the passion, not…

> Get a CEO/upper management that are in it for the passion, not the money, and cut their salaries (bonuses tied directly to increase in Firefox market share) And people wonder why non-profits and NGOs don’t attract the best talent. This entitled mindset is the why. That people who want to do good work should earn less. Perfect! Let them pay for their vacation with goodwill and air. This is especially rich coming fro…

There is a vast ocean between strugling to pay for your vacation and making millions every year.

And there is no "the HN crowd" - don't fall into the trap of assinging to collective consciousness for groups and then complaining that it does not behave rationally.

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