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Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

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Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#221

Post by burner556 »

maxwell wrote: post #207
ahh wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the issue is that we don't have the political will to arrest, prosecute, and imprison criminals, until our societies consist of people who don't commit crime.

Expand mass incarceration in the U.S., which has already eclipsed the scale of Black slavery, Nazi camps, and Soviet gulags, until everybody is imprisoned? Why not hire competent investigators to infiltrate and bring down this new model of highly profitable criminal operation (pay boosters -> warehouse goods -> move product online)? Instead all ya got is lOcK Up TeH BooSterS?

That’s a great idea. I think we should do that. As well as lock up the boosters. If you let people steal without repercussions society goes down fast

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#222

Post by azth »

SllX wrote: post #220
azth wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is definitely acceptable when the right conditions apply.

We don’t practice that kind of savagery in our society.

Justice is justice, and is required for a functioning society. We see where being overly lenient and not enforcing justice has caused us to end up.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#223

Post by SllX »

azth wrote: post #222
SllX wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don’t practice that kind of savagery in our society.

Justice is justice, and is required for a functioning society. We see where being overly lenient and not enforcing justice has caused us to end up.

There’s a whole spectrum between law enforcement and prosecutors doing the basics of their job as a deterrent and cutting off people’s hands.

Are we too lenient? Sure! Should we cut off hands? Hell no. This isn’t the Middle Ages.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#224

Post by azth »

SllX wrote: post #223
azth wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Justice is justice, and is required for a functioning society. We see where being overly lenient and not enforcing justice has caused us to end up.

There’s a whole spectrum between law enforcement and prosecutors doing the basics of their job as a deterrent and cutting off people’s hands. Are we too lenient? Sure! Should we cut off hands? Hell no. This isn’t the Middle Ages.

It's only applied in certain specific situations. Again, justice is justice. "Middle ages" is non-conducive to the argument and just straw manning.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#225

Post by candiodari »

tomlockwood wrote: post #216
josephcsible wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying to imprison everyone, obviously. I'm saying to imprison everyone who steals .

And my argument is against turning the dial up on punishment as a result of people in prison not being able to steal. The logic you've put forward, at the very least, suggests that people who steal should therefore have life sentences, and that already sounds a little absurd. If we should imprison people more, to prevent crime, why not you and me? I assume we've both jaywalked.

You could add that the price for having a single person in jail is more than people steal. A prisoner costs, in California, $106000 per year.

It would literally be cheaper (and obviously far more efficient for the economy) to offer anyone who steals $50 000 per year as long as they don't steal again. I mean you'd be paying criminals more than police officers, so I get that there would be revolution, but perhaps there are a LOT of cheap possibilities. If you offer someone $10k and what you ask in return keeps them out of prison for 3 months, that's a LARGE profit for the economy ...

The "prevent economic loss, by preventing stealing" argument is pretty strongly against prisons, doubly so in California.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#226

Post by candiodari »

foogazi wrote: post #86
tomlockwood wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Everyone steals" is not a good defense to stealing. I'm not defending stealing, I'm saying for all crime in America, the deterrent of jail doesn't appear to be working. That button has already been pressed, hard.

> the deterrent of jail doesn't appear to be working. Deterrent ? It does work, the people in jail are not stealing

Can you explain how "it works" when jail inmates cost $106000 per year? You don't need jail to make someone steal less than $106k. You can just let them steal in supermarkets, they'll never get to that amount.

Because that's the whole point, isn't it? Prevent economic loss. So that means the solution needs to cost LESS then the problem. Jails cost more. This is exactly the opposite of working, even on purely economic terms.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#227

Post by SllX »

azth wrote: post #224
SllX wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a whole spectrum between law enforcement and prosecutors doing the basics of their job as a deterrent and cutting off people’s hands. Are we too lenient? Sure! Should we cut off hands? Hell no. This isn’t the Middle Ages.

It's only applied in certain specific situations. Again, justice is justice. "Middle ages" is non-conducive to the argument and just straw manning.

This isn’t an argument. This would have to be an argument for me to be straw manning, and if this were an argument that would not be a correct use of the phrase “straw manning” because the word you are looking for is “contempt”.

There is no room in our society for this form of savagery and it is both against our laws and at this point of time our customs. I can’t control what a man thinks to himself privately even if he should grow past it, but please do not advocate that Middle Ages era nonsense here.

We’re done here.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#228

Post by azth »

SllX wrote: post #227
azth wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only applied in certain specific situations. Again, justice is justice. "Middle ages" is non-conducive to the argument and just straw manning.

This isn’t an argument. This would have to be an argument for me to be straw manning, and if this were an argument that would not be a correct use of the phrase “straw manning” because the word you are looking for is “contempt”. There is no room in our society for this form of savagery and it is both against our laws and at this point of time our customs. I can’t control what a man thinks to himself privately even if…

Dismissing something as "middle ages" with only emotional arguments such as "savagery" or "nonsense" isn't really making a point. If "customs" are causing societal decline, maybe we should rethink them.

Justice is justice.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#229

Post by sershe »

tomlockwood wrote: post #25

I'd like anyone who considers more harsh jail punishments to be the solution to consider that the USA has the highest per-capita prison population in the world. Only 1/5 of those prisoners is in there for drug-related crime. Perhaps harsher punishments aren't going to help here.

This is probably an opinion that I have that is the furthest away from the overton window, but while I wholeheartedly agree (and think drugs should be legalized FWIW), I draw a very different conclusion. Jails definitely don't work as rehabilitation and only prevent crime via removal from society. Also, they are very expensive. So, for better removal, I think habitual criminals (violent or property) should simply be executed. The only problem with death penalty for those who refuse to respect others' negative rights really is the risk of false convictions, and after 3 separate robberies or 5 thefts it is basically 0.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#230

Post by sershe »

berberous wrote: post #94
tomlockwood wrote: post #25

I'd like anyone who considers more harsh jail punishments to be the solution to consider that the USA has the highest per-capita prison population in the world. Only 1/5 of those prisoners is in there for drug-related crime. Perhaps harsher punishments aren't going to help here.

How many of those are recent convicts vs people serving long sentences piling up? I feel like no one advocates for a middle ground. I usually don’t believe in locking people up excessively. I also don’t believe in effectively legalizing crime by never persecuting petty theft. If it’s your second or third time shoplifting in bulk, I think a 6 month prison sentence is appropriate. There needs to be some penalty to disi…

The real problem with jails is that they (1) destroy your life outside and, (2) have you spend time surrounded by other criminals.

So, they make it more likely that you will become/remain a criminal once you come out, even after a short time. So, the middle ground doesn't really work well; we either have to try hard to not put someone in prison, or we basically commit to putting them in prison forever. Because we cannot really say the latter part out loud we release them occasionally and then put them back. The argument currently appears to be between these two extremes in isolation, and the real middle ground IMHO would be to do both things, to different people. But moderate punishment might be the worst of both worlds.

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