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Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

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Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#191

Post by seanmcdirmid »

lamontcg wrote: post #168
csense wrote: post #18

For me, it's a systems design problem. How do you design a law enforcement system that (1) doesn't grind down poor and minorities the way the current system does, yet (2) still makes punishment for minor crimes like shoplifting sufficiently swift, sure, and severe to be an effective deterrent? Liberals tend to say "Let's focus on (1) and ignore (2)," while conservatives say "Let's focus on (2) and ignore (1)." Is it…

Get people jobs, get them off drugs and give them something to hope for so that you don't have to use law enforcement as the solution?

What if they don't want jobs and don't want off drugs? Can we force them?

We can throw all the money we want at this problem, but at the end of the day, the person has to be somewhat willing to get their life back together, or we are just waiting it.

It is not like most of them didn't have housing/work before their addiction started. The "I got addicted to drugs because I lost my housing and job" isn't as common as the other way around. The reason the problem is so bad now is that really bad drugs that mess people up a lot are much easier to get these days. Many of those people are never coming back, even if you gave them food and shelter for life.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#192

Post by [deleted] »

disambiguation wrote: post #159
MattGaiser wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider another few possibilities. 1. Americans are just more likely to be criminals. 2. Other nations may be equally or even more ineffective at tackling crime. The assumption that jail doesn't work rests on the assumption that other nations track crime as effectively and that their people are equally criminal.

1. Quickly becomes an uncomfortable conversation for most people when you look at the crime stats breakdown by demographic.

[deleted]

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#193

Post by MerelyMortal »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #117
missingrib wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People could pay for a service where firefighters would come and put out a potential fire at their house.

What if your neighbor decides not to pay their fire fighting bill? You going to be happy about living within feet of their uncontrolled blaze?

I believe those firefighting services will respond to every fire, they will just watch and prevent it from burning a neighboring house that does pay.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#196

Post by lamontcg »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #191
lamontcg wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get people jobs, get them off drugs and give them something to hope for so that you don't have to use law enforcement as the solution?

What if they don't want jobs and don't want off drugs? Can we force them? We can throw all the money we want at this problem, but at the end of the day, the person has to be somewhat willing to get their life back together, or we are just waiting it. It is not like most of them didn't have housing/work before their addiction started. The "I got addicted to drugs because I lost my housing and job" isn't as common as t…

A good chunk of the people arguing to throw them all in prison are probably one good car accident away from getting hooked on opiates to get through the chronic back pain and winding up like them. Might be you.

And you cannot force people to stop drugs, but most of them really don't want to be doing what they're doing, but they need a way out to be there when they try to find it. Tossing them in jail doesn't work and we can't lock them away for life or execute them.

And they need housing (even while they're on drugs) and they need a job when they start getting clean, or they'll relapse.

You can't force anything, which is kind of the point about why treating it with the criminal justice system is stupid.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#197

Post by josephcsible »

lamontcg wrote: post #196
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if they don't want jobs and don't want off drugs? Can we force them? We can throw all the money we want at this problem, but at the end of the day, the person has to be somewhat willing to get their life back together, or we are just waiting it. It is not like most of them didn't have housing/work before their addiction started. The "I got addicted to drugs because I lost my housing and job" isn't as common as t…

A good chunk of the people arguing to throw them all in prison are probably one good car accident away from getting hooked on opiates to get through the chronic back pain and winding up like them. Might be you. And you cannot force people to stop drugs, but most of them really don't want to be doing what they're doing, but they need a way out to be there when they try to find it. Tossing them in jail doesn't work and…

> A good chunk of the people arguing to throw them all in prison are probably one good car accident away from getting hooked on opiates to get through the chronic back pain and winding up like them. Might be you.

If I ever start stealing from people to get drugs, please do throw me in prison too with the rest of them all, even if the root cause was legitimately prescribed painkillers.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#198

Post by josephcsible »

tomlockwood wrote: post #51
ahh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only 1/5th of those prisoners are there for drug-crime (and I assume you believe as I do that much drug-related crime isn't worth the arrest?) then isn't that in fact evidence that our population commits substantially more _real_ crime than in other countries? If so, then yes, let's lock them up. "Everyone steals" is not a good defense to stealing.

> "Everyone steals" is not a good defense to stealing. I'm not defending stealing, I'm saying for all crime in America, the deterrent of jail doesn't appear to be working. That button has already been pressed, hard.

Even if prison were completely ineffective as a deterrent, that wouldn't be a reason to not use it, because criminals can't rob any more stores while they're imprisoned.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#199

Post by tomjen3 »

tomlockwood wrote: post #51
ahh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only 1/5th of those prisoners are there for drug-crime (and I assume you believe as I do that much drug-related crime isn't worth the arrest?) then isn't that in fact evidence that our population commits substantially more _real_ crime than in other countries? If so, then yes, let's lock them up. "Everyone steals" is not a good defense to stealing.

> "Everyone steals" is not a good defense to stealing. I'm not defending stealing, I'm saying for all crime in America, the deterrent of jail doesn't appear to be working. That button has already been pressed, hard.

We would have to compare that with how much crime there would be if there was no jails.

We might also look at things like how you can come back from jail and get a normal life, and looking into how we house people who are not suitable to get out again.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#200

Post by glogla »

erik_seaberg wrote: post #163
glogla wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Walmart profit is more important to you than people not starving?

If you want food, robbing the very people bringing in food is worse than robbing random strangers.

Walmart is not people, Walmart is a billion dollar company and it is not bringing food, it is selling it for profit. Stealing from a company is a matter of balance sheet, while stealing from people means a real someone (as opposed to a abstract corporate entity) is actually going to miss something.

Moreover, Walmart would throw the food away anyway, if nobody bought it.

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