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Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

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Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#131

Post by notthemessiah »

nine_k wrote: post #108
notthemessiah wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're more interconnected than at first glace. When ambitious people can't be stakeholders in the economy due to NIMBY gatekeepers, they resort to less socially-acceptable means of getting ahead and making it big. I don't think "reselling rings" are that easy to crack down on, they probably are not rings at all rely on apps and services and operate on a more individual basis. The very framing of such is just used t…

I suppose you're not suggesting that people whose ambition to become business leaders is hindered by high rent turn to running criminal rings?

If you grow up in a neighborhood where the only example of financial success around you is a drug dealer, and every honest person is losing, what would you want to be when you grow up?

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#132

Post by ameminator »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #32
ejb999 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...because they are losing money? stores aren't in business to feed you; they are in business to make money. Would you continue to own and run a store if it lost money for you? Better have deep pockets then.

How does society function if no one is tasked with feeding the people? Are we all supposed to own farms? How does that work with 330 million Americans? Who is going to have time to do things like design the hardware and software that power the devices you use to post on the internet--they don't have time to do that and work their personal farm for food...

I understand your point, that we all need to come together to solve community problems, as a community.

However, let's put this in context - when was the last time you did something, purely altruisticly, without any expectation of recompense? I think the people who do that kind of work are exceptional and exceptionally rare (assuming you are such a person). Even in those cases, those exceptional people choose problems where they can do the most good - and even if it can be argued that a community grocery store is such a place, it "competes" with various other local and global issues.

I imagine you need to get paid yourself in order to support your lifestyle.

Imagine someone were to approach you and ask the fruits of your labor for free - "qbasic_forever's software is a community good, why won't he simply do it for free?" I'm sure you have a variety of reasons, but most people's answers would be: life requires resources, so I must acquire those resources so that I and my family can live.

The grocery store owner and employees are in a similar circumstance. Or perhaps, a worse circumstance: "why should we continue to provide for a community which constantly steals from us and makes it harder for us to live?"

I have a very hard time answering this question - so I sympathize dearly with the grocery store owner.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#133

Post by ameminator »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #113
foogazi wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they get paid to do it - they literally make money from fighting fires

How does this business of fire fighting make money? All they do is spend money on equipment, labor, etc. Where is their income coming from, and who is incentivized to keep paying them despite no profit and no return on investment ever?

It doesn't, but the community decided that it was valuable, so chose to fund it using taxes, collectively. If you make the case to your community for a communal grocery store, it too can be funded with taxes. Be warned, it comes with its own set of problems that are hard to predict at the outset.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#134

Post by glogla »

edflsafoiewq wrote: post #122
glogla wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Walmart profit is more important to you than people not starving?

Walmart's profits have no bearing on the fact that stealing is immoral.

Calling your personal morality a fact seems bit over the top.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#135

Post by bitshiftfaced »

tomlockwood wrote: post #58
bitshiftfaced wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that conclusion, wouldn't you need to show that the USA has a higher rate of shoplifting and also a higher rate of incarcerated shoplifters per capita?

My conclusion is only that the harsher punishment button has, overall, already been pushed in America. This isn't an argument about shoplifting specifically.

Out of curiosity, I pulled up 73 countries that list prisoners per capita as well as theft per capita. There wasn't any meaningful correlation.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#136

Post by ameminator »

notthemessiah wrote: post #119
ameminator wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if the people running the store can't profitably operate (due to theft or other factors), why should they operate? Why should the owners of that supermarket go into ruin just to give you another shopping option? Why is it their responsibility to keep you fed at all?

My grandfather owned and operated an early contemporary grocery store, growing from his fruit stand. Before self-service shopping and the checkout line, you would just give the grocer a list of what you would need and they would get it from the inventory. This also made theft impractical. Now, with the skyrocketing cost of retail rent, and other costs affiliated with retail store operations, we see a return full-serv…

It's a shame - however, I live in an area without this endemic shop-lifting. I enjoy my local community store and I'm sad that others in these high-crime areas cannot.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#137

Post by tomlockwood »

bitshiftfaced wrote: post #135
tomlockwood wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My conclusion is only that the harsher punishment button has, overall, already been pushed in America. This isn't an argument about shoplifting specifically.

Out of curiosity, I pulled up 73 countries that list prisoners per capita as well as theft per capita. There wasn't any meaningful correlation.

I didn't really expect there to be a correlation.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#138

Post by seanmcdirmid »

tomlockwood wrote: post #25

I'd like anyone who considers more harsh jail punishments to be the solution to consider that the USA has the highest per-capita prison population in the world. Only 1/5 of those prisoners is in there for drug-related crime. Perhaps harsher punishments aren't going to help here.

I get it. But why after we are asked to decriminalize meth and heroin are we being asked to spend a lot of money on drug rehab and housing for people whose lives have fallen apart because of fentanyl? Or that we should just accept that they need to steal those LEGOs at Target to fund their addiction and there shouldn’t be any consequences?

I agree that harsher punishments would not work, but compassion that simply enables this behavior isn’t the way either.

Honestly, the way the suburbs (like Bellevue WA) handle the problem via simple police intimidation (every incident is met with overwhelming police presence) to push the problems on more open nearby cities (Seattle in this case) seems to be the only that works (locally at least, it doesn’t solve the problem at all regionally or nationally).

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#139

Post by MattGaiser »

tagoregrtst wrote: post #83
WalterGR wrote: post #59

Some companies are lying about why they’re closing stores. For example, Walgreens announced in 2019 that it would shutter 200 stores. Blaming shoplifting sounds like some serious Chamber of Commerce spin to direct attention away from them abandoning locations and the jobs that go with them, and to give ammunition to pro-corporate pro-policing factions.

So Walgreen is closing otherwise profitable stores out of spite? Do you have any evidence for this?

They are challenging the assumption/claim that they are profitable.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#140

Post by TedShiller »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #113
foogazi wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they get paid to do it - they literally make money from fighting fires

How does this business of fire fighting make money? All they do is spend money on equipment, labor, etc. Where is their income coming from, and who is incentivized to keep paying them despite no profit and no return on investment ever?

Actually, I have private fire insurance that I do pay for, and the insurance makes plenty of money on it. That's ok with me.
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