Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Sometimes grandiose titles can work against you. Early stage startups can be especially hilarious that way, especially when young founders/early stage employees mistakenly feel they need a "big" title to be taken seriously...
Yep, indeed. I'm technically the CTO of the startup I'm helping to found. And even though I'm 37, I haven't been in tech long enough to feel like I've earned that title, so my LinkedIn says Chief Software Architect (I made it up).
How fresh grads with zero experience get hired as senior engineers
141–150 of 332 posts
Re: How fresh grads with zero experience get hired as senior engineers
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
But we are specifically talking about graduates being paid quarter of a million dollars, so why are you bringing absolute numbers into the mix? Should I compare it against the absolute number of people working everywhere in the world? Because then that million won't be so large suddenly. If you want to do this properly tell me how many graduates out of all graduates per year get paid quarter of a million dollars when…
I was paid nearly $200k on graduation. And I was the least paid out of all my classmates, because I went to Seattle instead of Silicon Valley.
Re: How fresh grads with zero experience get hired as senior engineers
#143There is no standard whatsoever for the adjective "Senior" when applied to engineers: Sometimes it means, "Able to work without someone looking over their shoulder at all times." Sometimes it means, "Able to lead and mentor others." And sometimes it means, "Has organizational skills above and beyond engineering skills, able to lead cross-team initiatives and deal with all the human/organization issues around the engi…
As someone who has hired a new grad into a “Senior Engineer” role, it meant the title of the salary band that met the candidate’s salary requirements to make our offer competitive with the other offers he received. We wanted to hire a junior role since our team was already relatively senior. But the company’s salary bands were not at all competitive for entry-level developers. So we classed the new hire as senior to…
I'm running a hiring competition right now for a "Senior." The pay band is less than what entry level startups pay. So we rotate through a never ending stream of kids who leave for better salaries because we don't have any higher levels.
Sometimes we do get lucky and pick up a mediocre lifer (like me) so HR sees no incentive to change.
Never take a job for a company where you are not on the value chain!
Re: How fresh grads with zero experience get hired as senior engineers
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
> A core concept behind something being a "game" is that it exists in a morally isolated sandbox This is interesting; if true, what of game theory's seat at the core of many notions of strategy as deployed for explicitly moral purposes? Also, anecdotally, I've seen pretty good results putting some campy, tongue in cheek acknowledgement that I'm not playing games in the resume/cover letter space where these alleged "r…
GP is making up definitions for concepts in ways that make no sense. denying the existence of games because you find them morally reprehensible doesn't change the fact of their existence. of course games are executed with moral repercussions. if anything, that's really the point of games. they are simplified, yes, but not amoral. if anything, most "amoral" or "apolitical" games are widely implemented hegemonic tools.
Re: How fresh grads with zero experience get hired as senior engineers
#145Re: How fresh grads with zero experience get hired as senior engineers
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
>since the entire field is about solving problems efficiently. The entire theoretical CS field yes. In the practical field of CS engineering, this is only a subset of the useful competences and a small one at that . Communication, working as part of team, reliability, ability to look up and learn things you don't currently know, caring about the state of the code you write, mentoring others, being able/willing to pus…
I used to have a co-worker exactly like you describe. He was great for consulting business: the clients liked him him so much that they hired two additional consultants. One to fix everything that he broke and another to do the job he was supposed to do and took credit for.
* A sample of one is not relevant
* You also used to have many other coworkers that weren't very good at whiteboarding, since even very good engineering teams in FANGS have many people like that, and that didn't have that problem since you specifically said you had one occurence of that.
So hear me out: maybe there isn't a single predictor that you can just automatically throw at interviewees, like a hard leet code problem, and hope that it will magically filter out the very best engineers for you to pick from. Maybe you should have an interview process that test the different areas I mentioned proportionally to what the actual job you are recruiting for requires.
Re: How fresh grads with zero experience get hired as senior engineers
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly my point, folks with privilege like yourself don't even understand what privilege they have and have taken advantage of their whole life. I did (apply myself). I did work my ass off to get into, and out of, (good) engineering school and pay for it also. It simply wasn't an option for me to go to an expensive private or out of state school with a price tag of a couple hundred thousand dollars. So I went to the…
My family was so poor, I got into college for free. Talk about unprivileged.
Re: How fresh grads with zero experience get hired as senior engineers
#148There is no standard whatsoever for the adjective "Senior" when applied to engineers: Sometimes it means, "Able to work without someone looking over their shoulder at all times." Sometimes it means, "Able to lead and mentor others." And sometimes it means, "Has organizational skills above and beyond engineering skills, able to lead cross-team initiatives and deal with all the human/organization issues around the engi…
On a related note, I dated a woman who was promoted to vice president of a small start up when she was in her 20's. She had to hide her title on her resume when she left because no established firm wanted to hire someone whom they assumed they'd need to pay a quarter million dollars to be competitive. Sometimes grandiose titles can work against you.
Re: How fresh grads with zero experience get hired as senior engineers
#149I had a really similar experience as my first software dev job and this post brought up a lot of old memories. I ended up writing quite a lot, but I hope it's helpful for someone else in a situation like this. It wasn't until I started reading HN that I began realizing how common these types of experiences may be.
The company I worked for was a small consultancy specialized in customizing/integrating an enterprise software package sold by one of the big old names in enterprise IT. There were several F500 companies in their clients list.
The interview was extremely cursory and positive, like the one described in this article. I was offered a position almost immediately which was quite surprising given my lack of experience with their domain. The company also had a very "family-like" atmosphere, everybody I dealt with, including the owner, was actually very friendly and supportive throughout. Single digit headcount. There were a couple H1-B visa holders on staff, but it was not the majority. They cultivated the same kind of "we are all in this together" kind of attitude. It wasn't until I went on site for my first assignment that I realized how they operated.
I went through about two weeks of training then was flown out to the HQ of one of our biggest clients. Huge, household name F500 company, I had no experience with that kind of organization before. I vividly remember the first day on site. I am just off the flight and eating in the client's cafeteria with the owner of the consultancy and two coworkers. The owner tells me that he has told everyone on the client's team that I am a senior consultant with 5 years experience. At that time, I was just a couple years out of college with no relevant work experience, only some hobby level programming skills. I was totally blindsided and was immediately put into meetings with the client's team where I had to think fast in order to present myself properly. I was presented as a resource for the client's team to learn from, meaning I had to field questions, equivocate, then follow up later after I had asked my co-workers at the consultancy for help. I'm sure I was no use at all during those first couple weeks and I shudder to think of how I presented to the client's team. I know there was at least one other co-worker who was put in a similar position at the same time.
At the time, for me personally there was no question about whether I should go along with this or not. I had hotel and flights paid for and no other immediate career prospects. To be totally honest, I didn't immediately feel an ethical conflict, mostly a naive sense of responsibility to not let my coworkers down and a curiosity about whether I could actually do the technical work that the client expected. I was also very curious about the large, corporate environment which I had never worked in before.
I gradually learned that our consultancy's headcount was overstated by a factor of 10 to 100, depending on the client. Members of our extremely small team were rotated in and out to clients in order to give the appearance of a much larger team. I believe my boss' strategy was to use the inevitable staffing difficulties this caused as leverage in negotiations with our clients, in order to demonstrate that we were highly in-demand experts. I also learned that the software we specialized in was completely oversold relative to the customer's needs, and shipped with huge swathes of functionality missing or broken. These missing or broken features were responsible for generating a ton of revenue for not only our consultancy, but at least two other, much larger firms. One would almost think it was a deliberate design decision.
The post mentions imposter syndrome, I would be curious to hear more about how this experience affected that for the author. Oddly enough, my own experience with a shady consultancy had a huge personal benefit in overcoming my own feelings of imposter syndrome. I am a good communicator and realized that I could quickly learn the jargon and social conventions of this workplace. After a couple weeks on the job I was actually productive and built out some major chunks of custom functionality. I learned quickly and the work was not really that technically challenging. If anything, it showed me that you could survive in large organizations like our client company by being an effective communicator and that most of the people employed there weren't intimidating wizards. I actually really enjoyed working with many of our client's staff and wish I could have done so under better circumstances.
I left after a little over a year. The amount of pay wasn't too bad but there were several unannounced late paychecks that spooked me. Also, even though my skills were up to the task and I worked well with my teams, the feeling of constantly looking over one's shoulder and having to keep up the management's lies really took a mental toll. At first it was exhilarating, but eventually I came to the same conclusion that the OP did where I felt I could not build a career on this foundation. I completely changed industries to shake up the depression that settled on me. Shortly afterwards, I learned my boss was engaging in some sort of tax scheme that caught up with him, resulting in him dissolving the company then fleeing the US for a time.
Ultimately working for this company taught me a lot of soft skills and not a lot of transferable technical skills. My opinion is that the burnout I felt, leading me to change careers, probably had a detrimental effect on my long-term career prospects. I later realized I actually enjoyed and excelled at software dev and could have been much further along that path by now if my first experience wasn't so bad. Overall I have very mixed feelings about the experience but it was formative for younger me learning how the world works.
Re: How fresh grads with zero experience get hired as senior engineers
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quoted post unavailable.
Blue collar workers are some of the hardest working people I know. Some of them make as much as 40k per year. Yes, I said "as much". You really, really need to check yourself. You have no idea how good you have it.