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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#971

Post by cpach »

greggman3 wrote: post #813
ReactiveJelly wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And pointing to the decline of religion isn't very helpful for us atheists. I can't really buy into a religion I don't believe in for the sake of making society better. I'd rather try to make society better directly, I don't want to do a "noble lie". I'll gesture vaguely at "the suburbs". Low trust and alienation describes my childhood in a place where you needed a car to do anything and even when my parents let me w…

I'm 100% with you on being athiest and not wanting to support religion in my life but, one thing many religions provide is a social club. Every Sunday and for some religion even more days, you meet up with people socially. Churches have festivals, dances, classes, even singles events that you're encouraged to attend regularly and at which you'll likely make friends and possible more Vs outside where sure I can join a…

“ Let pitch a non-religious social club to YC :p”

That’s actually a very interesting idea!

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#972

Post by mangodrunk »

rayiner wrote: post #716
nautilius wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obsession about equality as a central tenet in Christianity? You may want to read up on the crusades, slavery, the 30 year war, how even other Christian immigrants (Irish, Italian, etc) were welcomed into the US etc. Also, just because some Christians share some of the morals of your humanist friend does not imply any relation whatsoever. There appears to be that desire from religious groups to often exaggerate and e…

> Obsession about equality as a central tenet in Christianity? You may want to read up on the crusades, slavery, the 30 year war, how even other Christian immigrants (Irish, Italian, etc) were welcomed into the US etc. You may want to read up on slavery. Abolition in Christian societies was mainly a religious movement. Arab societies practiced it extensively as well, but kept going until the 20th century, and only re…

Equality isn't a central tenet of Christianity (for some sects, probably it is), and even if it were, many Christian socities have certainly not practiced that. Christian societies have tendencies to be militaristic and exploitative. I do think that is in part driven by their religion, to convert others.

You are are oversimplifying, cherrypicking, or getting the facts wrong.

Isn't equality a tenet of Islam?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#973

Post by [deleted] »

danans wrote: post #712
rayiner wrote: post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cultural legacy is more deeply intertwined with morals than people appreciate. It’s just hard to see it because you’re surrounded by it. It’s easier to notice when you compare between countries and across religious traditions. My dad was raised very religious (Muslim) in Bangladesh. His grandfather was an imam. He is non-religious and I grew up non-religious, but I joined a Christian church after I got marrie…

> I mean, how many societies have a religion centered around some other ethnic group? Plenty. Southeast Asia has religions centered around Indian or Arab religions. Same for Iran and much of Central Asia with Islam. All these places have adapted the other ethnicity's belief system to their own culture. It's no different for Christianity. Bertrand Russell described it as the combination of Greek philosophy with Jewish…

[deleted]

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#974

Post by [deleted] »

N1H1L wrote: post #301
ytwombly wrote: post #150

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

The purpose of a man's life is meaning and the search for it. For years, centuries even, this meaning in a man's life was provided by being a provider. This order was enforced through society. And you can use society and religion interchangeably here because the distinction between the two is only a century or two old. And this order enforced the role of a child-bearer and nurturer to women. Obviously, such an order…

[deleted]

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#975

Post by newaccount74 »

jimbokun wrote: post #200
NylaTheWolf wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Girls Who Code" program was created because of the discrimination and bias women face in the tech industry (not to mention other workplaces and areas of life). Also, the existence of woman managers doesn't suddenly mean that sexism doesn't exist in the industry. I'd imagine that many woman managers have faced a lot of prejudice throughout their careers. And there's probably a large amount of women who want to ge…

What is your evidence for discrimination? Are they paid less for the same work? Denied promotions? Are men being favored for hiring over equally qualified women?

The problems women face in male-dominated fields are well documented. Blog posts and articles describing the discrimination are occasionally posted on HN, and if you're a frequent reader you must have seen them.

There are obvious issues like sexual harassment. Almost every woman I know has been a victim of it at some point, but I don't know any man who has been sexually harassed at the workplace. For this reason men typically think that sexual harassment at the workplace is not a big issue.

But there's also more subtle things, that are hard to measure since companies aren't open about them, like women being made lower offers for the same job with the same qualifications, or women being less likely to be promoted, or women straight up being refused the job because "they might leave the job soon to have children".

Getting evidence for these things is hard, because companies rarely give a reason why they are hiring or promoting someone, and even if they give a reason it's very rarely something that can be objectively measured.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#976

Post by magicroot75 »

greggman3 wrote: post #813
ReactiveJelly wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And pointing to the decline of religion isn't very helpful for us atheists. I can't really buy into a religion I don't believe in for the sake of making society better. I'd rather try to make society better directly, I don't want to do a "noble lie". I'll gesture vaguely at "the suburbs". Low trust and alienation describes my childhood in a place where you needed a car to do anything and even when my parents let me w…

I'm 100% with you on being athiest and not wanting to support religion in my life but, one thing many religions provide is a social club. Every Sunday and for some religion even more days, you meet up with people socially. Churches have festivals, dances, classes, even singles events that you're encouraged to attend regularly and at which you'll likely make friends and possible more Vs outside where sure I can join a…

But it's not a the social aspect that does the work. While important, we have social clubs already. NFL on Sundays, adult sports leagues, workplace. We do yoga, pilates, CrossFit, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. It's not the social aspect that will save society. It is the moral order pointing a group towards a common source that doesn't just give meaning to one's own personal journey, but that gives a lifelong context and meaning to one's life in relationship with humanity and the cosmos. Otherwise a group is just something members enter and exit at will. This is similarly why family is so powerful. It is governed by an intrinsic relationship that can't be altered. When we call someone "family," regardless of biological status, we are inviting them into a permanent place in our lives unlike more recreational social groups.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#977

Post by magicroot75 »

someguydave wrote: post #373
_bkr9 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A note on fitness. Any pressure I've had to lose weight or whatnot has come from me . All female partners have said that they don't care about my weight, and some actually like some belly to rest on. That said, they have commented favourably on other physical features, and I'm not particularly overweight. I say all this just to try and fight the idea that crops up that if you're male and don't fit some jacked or "Cha…

Height is way more important than fitness to women.

As a 5'3 guy in pretty good shape with a nice apartment, six-figure job, and socially savvy, I agree. Almost all women taller than I am love coming to my parties and genuinely like me. But they are usually unable to see me as a romantic partner because of height. Forget dating apps or bars.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#978

Post by bckr »

bckr wrote: post #938
danans wrote: post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean, how many societies have a religion centered around some other ethnic group? Plenty. Southeast Asia has religions centered around Indian or Arab religions. Same for Iran and much of Central Asia with Islam. All these places have adapted the other ethnicity's belief system to their own culture. It's no different for Christianity. Bertrand Russell described it as the combination of Greek philosophy with Jewish…

For an intriguing spin on this, look into Manichaeism, a 3rd-century religion from modern Iran which syncretizes Zoroastrianism, Christianity, and Buddhism, and survived until the middle of the last millennium in China.

clarification: from what is now called Iran

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#979

Post by istorical »

awaythrow483 wrote: post #359
paulpauper wrote: post #111

The crisis, if there is one, is that society has less use for males who have IQs between 90-105 or so, who cannot cut it in STEM, and who are finding it hard to cope with increasingly competitive economic conditions and higher overall costs like rent, and is why many men are delaying family formation or moving back with parents (but also due to careerism for women). Men are just dropping out rather than doing low-pai…

I'm 33, Ive got a fairly high IQ, make $340k in a STEM field and enough to retire tomorrow, I'm not unattractive, and put a huge amount of effort over many years into online dating. I've pretty much given up on dating. I have a total inability to find anyone I'm interested in that is interested in me. When I was younger and I wanted to go to bars and get drunk and be an idiot I had plenty of attractive sexual partner…

If you have 340k and have put huge efforts into online dating and failed, it would be trivial economically for you to hire a professional photographer to get you a better dating profile (most people have shit photos, and you likely do too), it would be trivial to book some sessions with a dating coach (mainstream, not red pill style / PUA stuff) to give you feedback on your profile or real world interactions. You could also afford a personal stylist to do a wardrobe revamp.

Put those monetary resources your brain has afforded you to work.

If you were able to get laid at bars in the past, you are good looking enough. Your profile is just likely bad / has poor photos. And I know that sucks but its the real world.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#980

Post by nautilius »

trees101 wrote: post #744
nautilius wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obsession about equality as a central tenet in Christianity? You may want to read up on the crusades, slavery, the 30 year war, how even other Christian immigrants (Irish, Italian, etc) were welcomed into the US etc. Also, just because some Christians share some of the morals of your humanist friend does not imply any relation whatsoever. There appears to be that desire from religious groups to often exaggerate and e…

Christianity subsumed some pagan traditions. It's hardly a secret "gotcha", it's open for all to see. In the same way that when I eat an apple, the apple becomes part of me, I don't become an apple. There are critical differences between Paganism and Christianity. For example, the philosopher Rene Girard showed that many traditions had stories of mimetic desire and scapegoating, but Christianity showed the crucial en…

Sure. But do you go around claiming that the apple just sprang into your hand without a tree to grow from? That's the argument the post I replied to made.

And the common cherrypicking strawman again in this thread. No one claimed that Christianity is indistinguishable from Paganism, much like no one claims that the apple is indistinguishable from the apple tree.

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