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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#191

Post by jimbokun »

Jtsummers wrote: post #42
Spooky23 wrote: post #26

Of course. We treat females like they are a marginalized minority. My son’s school has a “Girls Can Code” program. All collateral features women and girls. (Boys are welcome though) I worked at a place where a C-level executive hosted company endorsed dinners at her home for female managers to mentor them for executive roles. If I setup a boys club for computers at school or hosted a men’s IT society at work, that wo…

> If I setup a boys club for computers at school or hosted a men’s IT society at work, that wouldn’t end well. Maybe not, but nearly every Users Group I've attended may as well have been a men's IT society for all the women I've seen attend, despite specific outreach efforts to get them there.

Are you implying that women were banned or explicitly discouraged from attending those groups?

EDIT: my bad, think I got you confused with a different comment.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#192

Post by skinkestek »

Jtsummers wrote: post #167
skinkestek wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably. But why should small boys be punished and denied opportunities because of that? Also, this has been even broader: Around here, until recently girls got extra points even on studies were they were massively over-represented (in addition to being generally over-represented in higher education.) Just recently boys started to get extra points when applying for Engineering degrees in Chemistry or in Nursing.)

I don't know where "around here" is or even what "girls got extra points even on studies where they were massively over-represented" means. Are you talking about grades? "points" towards college admissions?

Around here is Norway were I have spent most of my adult life (save a few weeks at work in other countries.)

I'm not a native English speaker and while I get my points across I struggle with the school system. Sorry for that.

Point is, around here when you apply for higher education you get a standardized score based on:

- how good your grades were.

- being over a certain age

- having extra maths/physics/chemistry classes

- being a girl (at least in STEM)

- etc

Recently, but only recently they have finally started to add extra points for boys applying for BSc nurse studies.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#193

Post by jms55 »

mjevans wrote: post #98
Jtsummers wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I setup a boys club for computers at school or hosted a men’s IT society at work, that wouldn’t end well. Maybe not, but nearly every Users Group I've attended may as well have been a men's IT society for all the women I've seen attend, despite specific outreach efforts to get them there.

While I share your first hand observations here, I'll note that (from my limited perspective) there was nothing obviously catering to non-females or any particular gender in these groups. Many of the groups I've attended also had 'professional standards'. So what is the discrepancy? What has changed and what is being done differently between the groups where 'boys' can optionally attend and ones that 'girls' appear t…

1. Women aren't going to want to join a group where they're the minority

2. Given a brand new group with 0 members yet, it's still likely that women will avoid it, because of their past experiences with 1. putting them off joining groups in general

3. Women are less common than men in general in CS. Any group that accepts the average person will statistically end up with more men than women.

The groups that "advertise" to women avoid these problems, which is why they tend to work.

I agree that we shouldn't need specialized groups, but I haven't seen any other solution, at least in the immediate term. Likely society will improve simply due to the passing of time, and in 50 years from now and it won't be a problem anymore.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#194

Post by muh_gradle »

klodolph wrote: post #67
awinter-py wrote: post #32

great book on this topic is friedan's feminine mystique (1963). She wrote about the spiritual crisis affecting a generation of young women who were more likely to be 'homemakers' than their mothers. worth reading at least the intro IMO for anyone who feels dissatisfied with their work / life / contribution not sure how yang made this his topic. my sense of his random walk is 'had a job at yahoo' -> future of work ->…

> great book on this topic is friedan's feminine mystique (1963) Another is “The Will To Love: Men, Masculinity, and Change” by bell hooks (2004) There aren’t a lot of authors that I feel get it right about issues relating to men and masculinity. Bell hooks is one of the few. > not sure how yang made this his topic. my sense of his random walk is 'had a job at yahoo' -> future of work -> UBI -> numbers guy -> times s…

I also live in NYC, and completely disagree with this take on Yang. I can't think of anyone who gets hated more unfairly than him. He provides actual substantive policy suggestions with evidence to support his claims. He doesn't resort to dirty muck-raking the same way that the other mayoral candidates and the NY Times did. In fact, NY Times and the NY Daily News spent so much time focusing on bashing Yang that it's literally the reason why Eric Adams of all people ended up being our mayor.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#195

Post by [deleted] »

jimbokun wrote: post #191
Jtsummers wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I setup a boys club for computers at school or hosted a men’s IT society at work, that wouldn’t end well. Maybe not, but nearly every Users Group I've attended may as well have been a men's IT society for all the women I've seen attend, despite specific outreach efforts to get them there.

Are you implying that women were banned or explicitly discouraged from attending those groups? EDIT: my bad, think I got you confused with a different comment.

[deleted]

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#196

Post by BitwiseFool »

zozbot234 wrote: post #56
BitwiseFool wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of these men and I hope this actually works out in the end. I sense that men also have a biological clock but we can reassure ourselves that we can keep putting off settling down because of the biological reality of male reproduction. If I just get a little more successful, then I will be more attractive in courtship. But the thing is, you lose track of time really quickly. And, it is quite the bootstrapping…

> Being awkward around women in High School is a given, but as a thirty-something it can be profoundly uncomfortable and off-putting. Males should be fixing that by making some female friends. Don't go the "creepy incel who hates all women and Chads" route.

>" Don't go the "creepy incel who hates all women and Chads" route"

Absolutely. I am on the autism spectrum so part of the difficulty I have can be attributed to that. However I accept that my social shortcomings are my own responsibility. I think a big part of the problem is finding new friends now that I am in my 30's and life is very stagnant.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#197

Post by jimbokun »

lph wrote: post #78
Spooky23 wrote: post #26

Of course. We treat females like they are a marginalized minority. My son’s school has a “Girls Can Code” program. All collateral features women and girls. (Boys are welcome though) I worked at a place where a C-level executive hosted company endorsed dinners at her home for female managers to mentor them for executive roles. If I setup a boys club for computers at school or hosted a men’s IT society at work, that wo…

> hosted a men’s IT society at work Maybe, just maybe, the point of those events for women has something to do with the fact that everything else in the tech world is a de-facto boys' club. My current team at work: 6 men. Previous team at a different company: 27 men, 3 women. The team before that: 5 men. The team before that: 10 men, 2 women. I guess we can debate "marginalized", but women are unquestionably a minori…

So were those teams trying to exclude women? Or just no (or few) women that wanted to be part of those teams?

Right now, tech companies are desperate to hire anyone qualified. Are you saying they are deliberately excluding women from consideration?

From what I've seen, all the tech employers are desperate to hire and promote women, and there are just very few women interested.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#198

Post by jimbokun »

bell-cot wrote: post #73
Spooky23 wrote: post #26

Of course. We treat females like they are a marginalized minority. My son’s school has a “Girls Can Code” program. All collateral features women and girls. (Boys are welcome though) I worked at a place where a C-level executive hosted company endorsed dinners at her home for female managers to mentor them for executive roles. If I setup a boys club for computers at school or hosted a men’s IT society at work, that wo…

Special "Help $Gender enter $Field_Where_Gender_Is_Rare" stuff makes sense, if (for whatever reason) it seems that having some fields highly gender-skewed is undesirable. And whatever the PC / ideological reaction, programs aimed the other way sound like a waste of resources. Or maybe there are a bunch of "convince women that nursing is a career for them, too", "day care workers shouldn't all be men", "ladies can bec…

> Special "Help $Gender enter $Field_Where_Gender_Is_Rare" stuff makes sense

Why? Why not just let people decide for themselves what kind of jobs to pursue?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#199

Post by kkjjkgjjgg »

YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo wrote: post #188
kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Have some respect for yourself.

What do you mean? This is already happening. And in general single mothers are becoming the norm, as the article already mentions.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#200

Post by jimbokun »

NylaTheWolf wrote: post #70
Spooky23 wrote: post #26

Of course. We treat females like they are a marginalized minority. My son’s school has a “Girls Can Code” program. All collateral features women and girls. (Boys are welcome though) I worked at a place where a C-level executive hosted company endorsed dinners at her home for female managers to mentor them for executive roles. If I setup a boys club for computers at school or hosted a men’s IT society at work, that wo…

The "Girls Who Code" program was created because of the discrimination and bias women face in the tech industry (not to mention other workplaces and areas of life). Also, the existence of woman managers doesn't suddenly mean that sexism doesn't exist in the industry. I'd imagine that many woman managers have faced a lot of prejudice throughout their careers. And there's probably a large amount of women who want to ge…

What is your evidence for discrimination?

Are they paid less for the same work? Denied promotions? Are men being favored for hiring over equally qualified women?

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