Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#211

Post by nojito » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:49 PM UTC

vsskanth wrote: post #66

Something that's not mentioned here is this refusal to even confirm what you worked on also affects people's immigration status. To approve I-140, USCIS requires a signed letter from employers confirming your title, experience and skill sets. Most companies really don't like to give these details out for some reason, and it's always a struggle, especially outside tech. People manage by contacting their managers to pa…

This article has nothing to do with employer/employee requested job verification.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#212

Post by nojito » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:50 PM UTC

trenning wrote: post #20

Sounds like when you leave Apple you are free to give yourself a title promotion since they wipe all that info. I would also pass on any company that needs references to my job title because their dystopian background check through the infamous Equifax says I'm an associate, even with a software engineering background, haha that part was beyond silly.

Where does it say that they wipe it?

This is only for 3rd party databases.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#213

Post by tristor » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:50 PM UTC

eunoia wrote: post #195

daniel_reetz wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm. And Apple used HireRight when they hired me.

Me too. HireRight was somehow completely unable to contact some of my previous employers. Situation resulted in me visiting old offices in person for proof of employment to satisfy HireRight. This all occurred after I had accepted the job offer and took a long and stressful time.

> This all occurred after I had accepted the job offer and took a long and stressful time.

Same situation for me, which is especially problematic because it's standard practice for offers or start dates of employment in the US to be contingent on the return of a clear background check within the first 30-90 days. Which means you might have already started onboarding to the new role and still be fighting with HireRight (has happened to me 3 times in ~18 years). More annoyingly, HireRight's own databases don't refer to previous points in time when you've corrected their errors, so each time starts from square one.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#214

Post by in_cahoots » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:51 PM UTC

smrz wrote: post #130

tinalumfoil wrote: post #96

If Apple considers level 1 and 5 to both be associates and doesn’t share more than that that’s… fine? WaPo says this can be a 6 figure difference in compensation but frankly why should a future employer get to know how much I make? Maybe I’m a level 3 but deserved to be a level 4. Maybe I’m a level 5 but actually a level 2 that’s just really good at office politics. If I want my employer to know what number Apple ass…

I cannot wait to check back in with you when you're trying to get a new job and negotiating salary. > If I want my employer to know what number Apple assigned me, I’ll tell them. Literally this article is about employers being like "hmm you told me this number but we don't believe you because Apple says its wrong"

In my 4 negotiation experiences, my results when not offering a competing/previous salary have always been better than when a company tries to match a competitor. When a company tries to match, they want to offer the bare minimum over the competition (which often is a minimal increase if the competition is your current company). When I name my own salary companies offer me what I want to be paid.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#215

Post by FireBeyond » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:51 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #187

FireBeyond wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Employee" is a term fraught with legal and other liability in it's use (think Uber drivers - are they employees or contractors?). HR departments will refer to everybody as “associates” to mitigate risk. If Apple wanted to confirm employment, but not divulge titles, they could say associate. But yet if you call these services while the person is still employed, they absolutely will divulge titles. There's no risk m…

>But yet if you call these services while the person is still employed, they absolutely will divulge titles. Is that actually the case?

The company involved stated that if the person was currently employed, they would give the job title (and that while their service would report 'Associate' post employment, if someone cared enough to clarify, they would be able to call them, give identifying information, and they would be able to get job titles from historic data).

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#216

Post by fropie » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:52 PM UTC

smrz wrote: post #130

tinalumfoil wrote: post #96

If Apple considers level 1 and 5 to both be associates and doesn’t share more than that that’s… fine? WaPo says this can be a 6 figure difference in compensation but frankly why should a future employer get to know how much I make? Maybe I’m a level 3 but deserved to be a level 4. Maybe I’m a level 5 but actually a level 2 that’s just really good at office politics. If I want my employer to know what number Apple ass…

I cannot wait to check back in with you when you're trying to get a new job and negotiating salary. > If I want my employer to know what number Apple assigned me, I’ll tell them. Literally this article is about employers being like "hmm you told me this number but we don't believe you because Apple says its wrong"

I work for a company with hidden internal levels and the only title is “Software Engineer”. It works fine.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#217

Post by 0des » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:52 PM UTC

HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #209

> “We are and have always been deeply committed to creating and maintaining a positive and inclusive workplace. We take all concerns seriously and we thoroughly investigate whenever a concern is raised and, out of respect for the privacy of any individuals involved, we do not discuss specific employee matters,” There’s a real skill in saying exactly zero while at the same time hitting a home run of $YEAR’s bullshit c…

With the way outrage flows unchecked these days can you blame them? Someone can be a C-level one day and the focus of bad press the next day, and the entire world holds their brand accountable. Everyone has a non-binding, non-committal relationship to their employer, and the employer is all too happy to cut-and-run to save face by the plausible ability to say "not our guy", or "this is just a support tech".

It's the 2022 form of "Your call is important to us, sit tight and someone will be with you shortly." It is a viable strategy straight out of the 2022 playbook because it works to "placate and wait" while the news cycle moves on to the next scandal-du-jour.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#218

Post by fropie » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:54 PM UTC

froggertoaster wrote: post #30

SilasX wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Well, he went on medical leave, so we changed his title to Mainstream Medicine Denier and then Organ System Pentester." Reference: https://apecsec.org/steve-jobs-liver-transplant-controversy/

Not funny.

No post body was provided.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#219

Post by CPLX » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:55 PM UTC

quietbritishjim wrote: post #201

treis wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Future employers will ask your level and if Apple tells them something different they're going to think you're lying. I can see it being problematic when applying to Government or enterprise roles. They will do their due diligence and might rescind an offer if they find a discrepancy.

> Future employers will ask your level and if Apple tells them something different they're going to think you're lying. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening. It's clear that "associate" means "they worked here but we won't tell you what as, ha ha". That's not lying! That's just not telling. And it's no reason for a future company to be suspicious.

That exact allegation, that an offer was rescinded, is the subject of a lawsuit mentioned prominently in the article.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#220

Post by ghaff » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:59 PM UTC

genocidicbunny wrote: post #99

hammock wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Associate means employee

Associate, in the USA at least, has a strong connotation of a junior position. As the article points out, there are plenty of examples of associate being used to describe a more junior position. And you know what other word unambiguously means 'employee'? That wouldn't cause this sort of clamor? Yes, 'employee' is that word.

What if they were a contractor? Or were both an employee and a contractor over the course of their time there?

I'm an "associate" at the company I work for and I'm certainly not junior. I certainly don't take offense at considering myself as an associate.

In specific contexts, e.g. an associate vs. a partner at a law firm, it has a different meaning but it's also a very common term to refer to all employees at a company.